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-   -   Dare I ask about oil? (https://www.ducati.ms/forums/120-oil-lubrication/537441-dare-i-ask-about-oil.html)

spinoli1 Oct 11th, 2015 7:05 am

Dare I ask about oil?
 
Hi Folks,

Now I've done a search and read a fair few threads about oil, but I haven't really answered my question, so here goes:

It's pretty simple really, I have acquired a couple of cases of Mobil Racing 4T Fully synthetic 4-stroke engine oil 15W-50 for motorcycles. Is this a suitable oil to use in my 998? Not asking if it is the absolute best, just if it is OK?

I am located in Southern England and use the bike for road and track days.

Thanks in advance.

Spin

DuckMan Oct 11th, 2015 7:48 am

That's interesting. Here in the States that oil only exists in a 10w-40.

But yes, use it.

Tripod Oct 11th, 2015 7:49 am

380 Attachment(s)

handensco Oct 11th, 2015 8:40 am

I don't think it will work at all. Will you please send those cases to me so I can dispose of them?
Thanks>:)

NTA Oct 11th, 2015 1:19 pm

This is good, isn't itů
http://i62.tinypic.com/2i92xk2.jpg

ProphetPVD Oct 11th, 2015 2:01 pm


DuckMan Oct 11th, 2015 3:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripod (Post 5340337)


Hummmm. Never seen it around here. Must be kinda new.

Masterbish Oct 11th, 2015 7:16 pm

I'm a Mobil 1 nut use it my cars and bikes for years, did have a few gear change issues using Mobil 1 4T in my 999, swapped to Shell Advance and all is well again.

gary856 Oct 11th, 2015 8:50 pm

was using yamalube 15w-50 4t in mine, couldnt find the shell oil. use mobile 1 10w-40 full synthetic

Serious Black Oct 11th, 2015 11:41 pm

And just to really liven things up I've been running Castrol 10/60 in the 900SS and a supermarket 10/60 in the 748. No problems, the 748 survived a good thrash around the Isle of Man. Last year I used Mobil 5w50 which I changed because I could feel the gearshift was not quite as nice after about 10 months. The 15w50 should be fine. Unless you are going racing.

Agro Oct 11th, 2015 11:50 pm

I am a maniac, I use Mobil 1 15-50 automotive (non 4T/motorcycle) full synthetic in my 1098S (dry clutch).

davy.j Oct 12th, 2015 4:43 am

Use what you like but I can tell you this, modern car oils don't contain the zinc and phosphorus anti wear additives that dedicated 4T bike oils do.
Cars don't share the same oil between engine and gearbox either.
4T bike oils are made to the old SG formula, car oils have gradually reduced the "good" additives to meet constantly evolving emissions regulations and are up to SM now

Renhoek Oct 12th, 2015 5:50 am

I would use it. No question

Bob T Oct 12th, 2015 7:37 am

Between about 1935 and 2000 there were millions of cars which used the same oil for the gearbox and the engine with no problems. These were used in many Austin, Morris and British Leyland cars including all minis of that era including the coopers.
Even now there are loads of cars which specify engine oil for use in the gearbox.
There is no such thing as a bad oil as there are only a few major companies who make the stuff, that is why they all comply with international standards. There is such a thing as an oil that is too thick which will take many revolutions of your engine before it has circulated fully on start up.

ProphetPVD Oct 12th, 2015 9:01 am

I use Motul 300-V, as was originally recommended by Ducati for use with my bike.

Serious Black Oct 12th, 2015 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by davy.j (Post 5341993)
Use what you like but I can tell you this, modern car oils don't contain the zinc and phosphorus anti wear additives that dedicated 4T bike oils do.
Cars don't share the same oil between engine and gearbox either.
4T bike oils are made to the old SG formula, car oils have gradually reduced the "good" additives to meet constantly evolving emissions regulations and are up to SM now

You only need the zinc and phosphorous when normal lubrication has failed and then you are probably screwed anyway,Also there is a good argument for using as little in the way of additives as possible so there is more oil to do the lubricating. Plenty cars use the same engine oil as gearbox oil. There is such a thing as progress and the additives are also constantly evolving. You don't think they took the zinc and phosphorous out and didn't put something else in?

Damn! Now look what I've gone and done!

Bob T Oct 12th, 2015 10:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProphetPVD (Post 5342233)
I use Motul 300-V, as was originally recommended by Ducati for use with my bike.

It was recommended by Ducati because it meets the same specs as many other oils, but Motul either gave it for free to Ducati or it was supplied to Ducati at a very discounted price. It is no better than any other oil of the same specification only cheaper.
Oil companies are the same as bike manufacturers, a business, and as such do not exist to do nice things and make nice stuff for you, but they are there to make money.

Shazaam Oct 12th, 2015 10:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agro (Post 5341865)
I am a maniac, I use Mobil 1 15-50 automotive (non 4T/motorcycle) full synthetic (dry clutch).

Me too.

ProphetPVD Oct 12th, 2015 12:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob T (Post 5342481)
It was recommended by Ducati because it meets the same specs as many other oils, but Motul either gave it for free to Ducati or it was supplied to Ducati at a very discounted price. It is no better than any other oil of the same specification only cheaper. Oil companies are the same as bike manufacturers, a business, and as such do not exist to do nice things and make nice stuff for you, but they are there to make money.

I do not have quite so cynical a view of things. I am sure there are other lubricants that would work just as well, but really, what's the point in changing? This is what has been used in the bike since it was first run in, and it's never had a single lubricant related issue. While the "deal" between the two companies may in fact have been helped along with favorable pricing, the fact is that the engineers who specify the nominal operating environment selected 300-V because it met their needs.

oldndumb Oct 12th, 2015 1:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob T (Post 5342481)
It was recommended by Ducati because it meets the same specs as many other oils, but Motul either gave it for free to Ducati or it was supplied to Ducati at a very discounted price. It is no better than any other oil of the same specification only cheaper.
Oil companies are the same as bike manufacturers, a business, and as such do not exist to do nice things and make nice stuff for you, but they are there to make money.

Are we to suppose that you have a reliable source you can cite to affirm those statements, other than companies are in business to make money?

As for differences in oil specifications, yes the specifications exist and the oils are formulated to meet them, but what about the additive packages? Each company has the ability to specify their own additive package formula, and therein is a difference.

BTW, making nice stuff for us is one of several business strategies. What else would they consider, an objective to make not so nice stuff for us? :wink2:

RockAZ Oct 12th, 2015 1:36 pm

I have preferred either Mobil 1 synthetic or Quaker state in my cars depending on how new the cars were. Last oil change on my Ducati 900SS I thought I would give this one a try. It seems fine to me, what do you guys think?

Mobil 1 V‐Twin 20W‐50 specs are 1600 PPM Phosphorus, 1750 PPM Zinc

spinoli1 Oct 12th, 2015 2:26 pm

Thanks for all your input guys. Both the 998 and the HM will be getting a colonic this weekend.

vij Oct 12th, 2015 3:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckMan (Post 5340329)
That's interesting. Here in the States that oil only exists in a 10w-40.

But yes, use it.

Afaik it is the same as the Mobil 1 v-twin oil. Just a new name as people did think that it was a Harley oil.


Jocke.

Bob T Oct 12th, 2015 3:55 pm

"the fact is that the engineers who specify the nominal operating environment selected 300-V because it met their needs."

First of all I am not a cynic but a realist who has worked in engineering all of my life.
Please do not think that any engineer will specify any particular brand of oil, it is the accountants that do that. The engineer will specify the viscosity and minimum rating (API or Euro ACEA spec). The additive package will be part of the oil which determines that specification.
You will be lucky to hear of any engine failure due to a bad oil over the last 15 years or so, they are all good.
Motul may be this months flavour but my 2010 848 has a sticker on the engine telling me to use Shell. I am very happy with my 5W40 API SG full synthetic that I use. I will not tell you the maker of that oil as it does not matter as long as it meets the specs and viscosity required. I would never use anything with a 20 at the front of the number as it puts so much strain on the lubrication system while taking longer to lubricate the engine on start up.
At the end of the day use what you want, it is your engine, but there is no such thing as a bad oil that meets the specs.
V-Twin oil is a great marketing laugh! When the oil is stopping two bits of metal from rubbing together, does it know how many cylinders the engine has? Does it care? Will they start marketing oil for red bike and white bikes next?

RockAZ Oct 12th, 2015 4:36 pm

Oil is an exciting topic on forums, that is for sure! I very much agree that any synthetic oil made in the last 15 years is all excellent stuff, go by the rating required to pick your flavor.

Anyway, I live in hot climate, often hits 45 degrees Celsius everyday for a hundred days a year - 20W oil works pretty well here. Never had the occasion to start a motorcycle when it was below 10 degrees Celsius ever. As an engineer I wonder what would you say of the - relative to other available brands - high phosphorus and zinc content of the Mobile 1 V-Twin oil (for RED BIKES! ) in an older motor with over 30,000 miles that has flat tappets vs rollers?

kdehkordi Oct 12th, 2015 5:00 pm

Its Italian, so..... Olive Oil should work just fine :)

ProphetPVD Oct 12th, 2015 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob T (Post 5343017)
...First of all I am not a cynic but a realist who has worked in engineering all of my life. Please do not think that any engineer will specify any particular brand of oil, it is the accountants that do that. The engineer will specify the viscosity and minimum rating (API or Euro ACEA spec)...

I am also a mechanical engineer, and have been for my entire professional career, beginning with R&D design/engineering of attack submarine combat systems for 12 years when I first got out of school and working for the a design engineering software company for the last 22. If the wording of my response led you to the conclusion that it was my belief that the engineers at Ducati specifically requested Motul 300-V, and re-reading what I wrote I can see how you would get that impression, then my apologies as that was not my intent. However, they did design around the specifications of a lubricant whose requirements were met by Motul, and most likely several others as well. My point was that it met their requirements and they endorsed it, and that is good enough for me.

The "cynic" comment was with regards to your view that all of these companies exist solely to profit. I feel it is a bit cynical to make that sort of assumption and I disagree with that view. Every organization I ever belonged to, and every design I ever initiated or participated in was intended first and foremost to solve a problem, or to create something that had never been created. I worked for and with people that inspired me, and do to this day. That was why I became an engineer in the first place... money had nothing to do with it. Personal satisfaction did.

davy.j Oct 12th, 2015 5:44 pm

My 748 was run on Motul all it's life until it died at 29,000 miles with worn out big ends and crank journals.
I won't be using it again, it's a race formulation oil and not suited to longer road bike change intervals.
Even on the oil pressure gauge I could see it degrade and drop pressure in as little as 800 km of hard use due to shear as the gearbox chopped it's long chain molecules up.
The Penrite I use now doesn't suffer the same issue.
Yer pay's yer money and takes yer pick but it pays to do plenty research and do your own assesments in life whatever the subject.
Oils ain't oils.

davy.j Oct 12th, 2015 5:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serious Black (Post 5342305)
You only need the zinc and phosphorous when normal lubrication has failed and then you are probably screwed anyway,Also there is a good argument for using as little in the way of additives as possible so there is more oil to do the lubricating. Plenty cars use the same engine oil as gearbox oil. There is such a thing as progress and the additives are also constantly evolving. You don't think they took the zinc and phosphorous out and didn't put something else in?

Damn! Now look what I've gone and done!


Most engine wear occurs at cold startup and that's just one time the additives are of value and if the additives work long after normal lubrication has failed what does that tell you about oils that have them and oils that don't.
They don't make 4T oils with them for just for the fun of printing it on the label.

Shazaam Oct 12th, 2015 6:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by davy.j (Post 5343273)
I won't be using it again, it's a race formulation oil and not suited to longer road bike change intervals.
Even on the oil pressure gauge I could see it degrade and drop pressure in as little as 800 km of hard use due to shear as the gearbox chopped it's long chain molecules up.

As davy.j points out above, any oil used in a shared sump motorcycle engine tends to thin out/loose viscosity) over time. The EPA has pressured engine manufacturers to extend oil change intervals to reduce the disposal problem of used motor oil. But therein lies a problem. Tests have shown that oil that also lubricates the gearbox in a motorcycle looses viscosity quite quickly. The gears in the transmission are the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.

In one series of tests, non-synthetic motorcycle-specific oils had lost over 30% of their viscosity at 800 miles, and over 35% at 1,500 miles.

It should be noted that the viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same engine. Also, starting out with a 50 weight oil means that it takes longer to end up with a 20 weight oil, for example.

This doesn't speak well for 7,500 mile oil change intervals (also encouraged by the EPA).

Serious Black Oct 13th, 2015 10:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by davy.j (Post 5343289)
Most engine wear occurs at cold startup and that's just one time the additives are of value and if the additives work long after normal lubrication has failed what does that tell you about oils that have them and oils that don't.
They don't make 4T oils with them for just for the fun of printing it on the label.

Yes, I know. That's why I use a multigrade synthetic. Synthetic oils hang around on metals longer while a thinner oil gets round a cold motor quicker which is rather handy here in Norway at the arse end of the year. 4T oils are formulated for bikes with wet clutches, which I don't have. This means I can take advantage of oils that have friction reducing additives. I try to keep enough oil in the engine so that there is no failure of lubrication.

davy.j Oct 13th, 2015 10:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serious Black (Post 5344697)
Yes, I know. That's why I use a multigrade synthetic. Synthetic oils hang around on metals longer while a thinner oil gets round a cold motor quicker which is rather handy here in Norway at the arse end of the year. 4T oils are formulated for bikes with wet clutches, which I don't have. This means I can take advantage of oils that have friction reducing additives. I try to keep enough oil in the engine so that there is no failure of lubrication.

4T Has nothing to with wet/dry clutches, that's a whole other spec story: MA. MB etc:
JASO MA and JASO MB classifications - oilspecifications.org

Dave G Oct 13th, 2015 10:34 pm

1 Attachment(s)
4T simply means for Four stroke, 2T is for 2 stroke.

Bonaventure Oct 14th, 2015 7:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinoli1 (Post 5340281)
Hi Folks,

Now I've done a search and read a fair few threads about oil, but I haven't really answered my question, so here goes:

It's pretty simple really, I have acquired a couple of cases of Mobil Racing 4T Fully synthetic 4-stroke engine oil 15W-50 for motorcycles. Is this a suitable oil to use in my 998? Not asking if it is the absolute best, just if it is OK?

I am located in Southern England and use the bike for road and track days.

Thanks in advance.

Spin


Dear God if I could get my hands on the 15W-50 viscosity of Mobil 1 Racing 4T I would use it all day long. It is available only in 10W-40 here in the states. Mobil 1 uses Alkylated Naphthalene a Group V (5) synthetic oil as the additive solubility agent in the Racing 4T. The base oil is their own proprietary Group III+ product called VISOM made right there in the UK at their Fawley operations. Finally, they blend in some PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) Group IV synthetic to achieve the characteristics of the formulation that make it so good. So it's a full synthetic blend of Group 3, 4, and 5 lubricants. What is unique about AN (Alkylated Naphthalene) is it doesn't compete with additives like zinc etc., for real estate on the metal surfaces like the highly polar esters do (often used as additive solubility agent by other brands). This allows more sacrificial additive compounds to adhere to the metal for better wear protection if hydrodynamic lubrication (wedge of oil film between parts) goes marginal.

All you ever wanted to know about Racing 4T ... ;)

RockAZ Oct 14th, 2015 9:52 am

I thought I found it, but no, not the motorcycle racing version of 15W-50 - just the racing car version.

http://www.mobil1racingstore.com/buyracinglubes.html

Thirdrail Oct 14th, 2015 12:57 pm

6 Attachment(s)
Mobil does make a 20w50. I use the 15w50 on my bike w/ the dry clutch.

DaveK Oct 15th, 2015 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazaam (Post 5343393)
As davy.j points out above, any oil used in a shared sump motorcycle engine tends to thin out/loose viscosity) over time. The EPA has pressured engine manufacturers to extend oil change intervals to reduce the disposal problem of used motor oil. But therein lies a problem. Tests have shown that oil that also lubricates the gearbox in a motorcycle looses viscosity quite quickly. The gears in the transmission are the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.

In one series of tests, non-synthetic motorcycle-specific oils had lost over 30% of their viscosity at 800 miles, and over 35% at 1,500 miles.

It should be noted that the viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same engine. Also, starting out with a 50 weight oil means that it takes longer to end up with a 20 weight oil, for example.

This doesn't speak well for 7,500 mile oil change intervals (also encouraged by the EPA).

So pretty obviously vehicles are designed to allow their oil to be within spec at some value substantially less than 100% of their 'as new' performance numbers, the million mile question is "HOW FAR under 100%". A quick search resulted in no mileage based testing of motorcycle oils for any model bike or brand oil that went beyond 1500 miles... which doesn't give us enough information to draw even a rough conclusion (pretty much useless actually). There seems to be a historical context driven 'wisdom' that 3000'ish miles is where the wear degraded performance of the oil falls below the 'safe limit' for <insert your vehicle of choice here>... but using a historical context where other factors confound the data doesn't allow for a trustworthy conclusion... basically it's your opinion at that point.

When someone says "Well I change my oil every 3000 miles, it's cheap insurance", I think fundamentally what they're saying is that they don't trust vehicle manufacturers to give them a data driven 'limit' for oil durability (including a reasonable safety margin). That's fine with me if it's your bag... but I've never seen any objective data that begins to indicate that any of them are misleading us. Ducati have defined a 9000 mile service life for engine oil on my bike, in the absence of data establishing empirically that they're wrong I'm going to have to take them at their word... because they're the experts not me.

Mobile 1 warranties one of their full syn's against oil based engine failure even with a 15,000 mile service interval (automotive). There is a LOT of data establishing that the 1500 and 3000 mile service intervals of the past were established (at least partly) due to leaded gas, and manufacturers increased recommended service intervals to the ~5k-10k mi range the same time they switched to unleaded.

IMO it's the same human idiosyncrasy that has driven tens of thousands of (otherwise) intelligent parents to conclude that getting their children immunized is a bad idea even though the VAST majority of competent Medical experts say it should be done - we get just enough information to form an opinion then stubbornly stick with it even if it has no valid data underpinning it. This is even more prevalent when there's a perceived risk associated with following expert recommendations. Luckily with engine oil (as opposed to immunizations) the only thing at risk is your wallet... so change away if it gives you peace of mind! :)

Thirdrail Oct 15th, 2015 8:09 pm

6 Attachment(s)
The same could be stated for your theory; the only thing at risk is your wallet, so just stick to manufacturers OCI's!>:)

davy.j Oct 16th, 2015 4:50 am

It's not rocket science... just fit an oil pressure gauge and you can see the pressure drop as the oil reaches it's use by date in a bike.
FWIW I use this stuff. http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_products=426

Just found out they make this stuff so might look into it next as it looks good.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...ULY%202015.pdf

Bonaventure Oct 16th, 2015 9:56 am

Shifting usually goes to crap between 3000 - about 3700 on my bike depending on oil brand. Indication it's sheared and time to change. I typically change at about 1/2 the normal service interval. Manufacturers will also usually specify that under severe service the oil should be changed sooner, often at about 1/2 the non-severe or normal interval. What they define as "severe service" is often pretty close to some folks driving/riding habits.

Also, with wet clutch bikes we may be getting some amount clutch plate friction material in the oil. It would seem to build up over time and filter efficiency may or may not address the issue, but one would wonder about build up of abrasives in the oil such as clutch material.


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