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-   Oil and Lubrication (https://www.ducati.ms/forums/120-oil-lubrication/)
-   -   Dare I ask about oil? (https://www.ducati.ms/forums/120-oil-lubrication/537441-dare-i-ask-about-oil.html)

Serious Black Oct 13th, 2015 10:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by davy.j (Post 5343289)
Most engine wear occurs at cold startup and that's just one time the additives are of value and if the additives work long after normal lubrication has failed what does that tell you about oils that have them and oils that don't.
They don't make 4T oils with them for just for the fun of printing it on the label.

Yes, I know. That's why I use a multigrade synthetic. Synthetic oils hang around on metals longer while a thinner oil gets round a cold motor quicker which is rather handy here in Norway at the arse end of the year. 4T oils are formulated for bikes with wet clutches, which I don't have. This means I can take advantage of oils that have friction reducing additives. I try to keep enough oil in the engine so that there is no failure of lubrication.

davy.j Oct 13th, 2015 10:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serious Black (Post 5344697)
Yes, I know. That's why I use a multigrade synthetic. Synthetic oils hang around on metals longer while a thinner oil gets round a cold motor quicker which is rather handy here in Norway at the arse end of the year. 4T oils are formulated for bikes with wet clutches, which I don't have. This means I can take advantage of oils that have friction reducing additives. I try to keep enough oil in the engine so that there is no failure of lubrication.

4T Has nothing to with wet/dry clutches, that's a whole other spec story: MA. MB etc:
JASO MA and JASO MB classifications - oilspecifications.org

Dave G Oct 13th, 2015 10:34 pm

1 Attachment(s)
4T simply means for Four stroke, 2T is for 2 stroke.

Bonaventure Oct 14th, 2015 7:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinoli1 (Post 5340281)
Hi Folks,

Now I've done a search and read a fair few threads about oil, but I haven't really answered my question, so here goes:

It's pretty simple really, I have acquired a couple of cases of Mobil Racing 4T Fully synthetic 4-stroke engine oil 15W-50 for motorcycles. Is this a suitable oil to use in my 998? Not asking if it is the absolute best, just if it is OK?

I am located in Southern England and use the bike for road and track days.

Thanks in advance.

Spin


Dear God if I could get my hands on the 15W-50 viscosity of Mobil 1 Racing 4T I would use it all day long. It is available only in 10W-40 here in the states. Mobil 1 uses Alkylated Naphthalene a Group V (5) synthetic oil as the additive solubility agent in the Racing 4T. The base oil is their own proprietary Group III+ product called VISOM made right there in the UK at their Fawley operations. Finally, they blend in some PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) Group IV synthetic to achieve the characteristics of the formulation that make it so good. So it's a full synthetic blend of Group 3, 4, and 5 lubricants. What is unique about AN (Alkylated Naphthalene) is it doesn't compete with additives like zinc etc., for real estate on the metal surfaces like the highly polar esters do (often used as additive solubility agent by other brands). This allows more sacrificial additive compounds to adhere to the metal for better wear protection if hydrodynamic lubrication (wedge of oil film between parts) goes marginal.

All you ever wanted to know about Racing 4T ... ;)

RockAZ Oct 14th, 2015 9:52 am

I thought I found it, but no, not the motorcycle racing version of 15W-50 - just the racing car version.

http://www.mobil1racingstore.com/buyracinglubes.html

Thirdrail Oct 14th, 2015 12:57 pm

6 Attachment(s)
Mobil does make a 20w50. I use the 15w50 on my bike w/ the dry clutch.

DaveK Oct 15th, 2015 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazaam (Post 5343393)
As davy.j points out above, any oil used in a shared sump motorcycle engine tends to thin out/loose viscosity) over time. The EPA has pressured engine manufacturers to extend oil change intervals to reduce the disposal problem of used motor oil. But therein lies a problem. Tests have shown that oil that also lubricates the gearbox in a motorcycle looses viscosity quite quickly. The gears in the transmission are the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.

In one series of tests, non-synthetic motorcycle-specific oils had lost over 30% of their viscosity at 800 miles, and over 35% at 1,500 miles.

It should be noted that the viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same engine. Also, starting out with a 50 weight oil means that it takes longer to end up with a 20 weight oil, for example.

This doesn't speak well for 7,500 mile oil change intervals (also encouraged by the EPA).

So pretty obviously vehicles are designed to allow their oil to be within spec at some value substantially less than 100% of their 'as new' performance numbers, the million mile question is "HOW FAR under 100%". A quick search resulted in no mileage based testing of motorcycle oils for any model bike or brand oil that went beyond 1500 miles... which doesn't give us enough information to draw even a rough conclusion (pretty much useless actually). There seems to be a historical context driven 'wisdom' that 3000'ish miles is where the wear degraded performance of the oil falls below the 'safe limit' for <insert your vehicle of choice here>... but using a historical context where other factors confound the data doesn't allow for a trustworthy conclusion... basically it's your opinion at that point.

When someone says "Well I change my oil every 3000 miles, it's cheap insurance", I think fundamentally what they're saying is that they don't trust vehicle manufacturers to give them a data driven 'limit' for oil durability (including a reasonable safety margin). That's fine with me if it's your bag... but I've never seen any objective data that begins to indicate that any of them are misleading us. Ducati have defined a 9000 mile service life for engine oil on my bike, in the absence of data establishing empirically that they're wrong I'm going to have to take them at their word... because they're the experts not me.

Mobile 1 warranties one of their full syn's against oil based engine failure even with a 15,000 mile service interval (automotive). There is a LOT of data establishing that the 1500 and 3000 mile service intervals of the past were established (at least partly) due to leaded gas, and manufacturers increased recommended service intervals to the ~5k-10k mi range the same time they switched to unleaded.

IMO it's the same human idiosyncrasy that has driven tens of thousands of (otherwise) intelligent parents to conclude that getting their children immunized is a bad idea even though the VAST majority of competent Medical experts say it should be done - we get just enough information to form an opinion then stubbornly stick with it even if it has no valid data underpinning it. This is even more prevalent when there's a perceived risk associated with following expert recommendations. Luckily with engine oil (as opposed to immunizations) the only thing at risk is your wallet... so change away if it gives you peace of mind! :)

Thirdrail Oct 15th, 2015 8:09 pm

6 Attachment(s)
The same could be stated for your theory; the only thing at risk is your wallet, so just stick to manufacturers OCI's!>:)

davy.j Oct 16th, 2015 4:50 am

It's not rocket science... just fit an oil pressure gauge and you can see the pressure drop as the oil reaches it's use by date in a bike.
FWIW I use this stuff. http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_products=426

Just found out they make this stuff so might look into it next as it looks good.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdf...ULY%202015.pdf

Bonaventure Oct 16th, 2015 9:56 am

Shifting usually goes to crap between 3000 - about 3700 on my bike depending on oil brand. Indication it's sheared and time to change. I typically change at about 1/2 the normal service interval. Manufacturers will also usually specify that under severe service the oil should be changed sooner, often at about 1/2 the non-severe or normal interval. What they define as "severe service" is often pretty close to some folks driving/riding habits.

Also, with wet clutch bikes we may be getting some amount clutch plate friction material in the oil. It would seem to build up over time and filter efficiency may or may not address the issue, but one would wonder about build up of abrasives in the oil such as clutch material.


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