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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old Feb 24th, 2009, 6:43 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow blur View Post
I’d be a little concerned that the sprocket won’t be allowed to “Float” as I believe it was designed to do, which may cause or create some unwanted stresses in the area. Possibly even picking up some added vibration that may transfer into other parts of the trans, bearings, seals, etc?
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Originally Posted by Rocking-M View Post
But, your retainer design looks great and let me know if it doesn't create any other problems.
Well.....as many engineers have said over time, "it looked good on paper."

I logged nearly 400 miles with the revised retainer system only to be disappointed, and wind up with an unwanted, modified sprocket cover. It seems that this retaining system does not like the slop that exists between the output splines and the sprocket. Through trial and error (while carrying various tools with me over the weekend), the design had a bolt back off to make a nice, large hole in the OEM plastic cover (I have a spare) and have a center bolt bounce down the road. Even after replacing the bolts with ones drilled for safety wire, cleaning all parts and using blue Locktite on the threads, and safety wiring everything, the bolts still came loose. Matter of fact, the center bolt had enough force on it, that it broke the 0.025" safety wire THREE times.

It looks like the play in the sprocket, when going back and forth between acceleration and deceleration with engine braking, is acting like an impact wrench and knocking the bolt on the output shaft loose. Also, I ran across two times where one of the smaller bolts worked its way loose, which may have been due to shifting and minor wear of the plates.

It's a shame that this system doesn't work as I had hoped, but at least I tried...and learned from it. I thought about using red Locktite, but I try to avoid the red stuff. I could also go to a larger size safety wire, but I do not want to trust this system to safety wire for day-to-day riding if the bolts are working thieir way loose, so....

Back to the OEM retainer system.

I guess whenever I need to split the cases, I'll probably have to replace this output shaft while I'm in there, because I do not like the additional play from the boogered up output shaft splines.

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old Feb 24th, 2009, 6:57 am
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Could you possibly grind of the boogered splines with a dremel and stack 2 oem retainers into the enlarged groove?

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old Feb 24th, 2009, 9:00 am Thread Starter
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Could you possibly grind of the boogered splines with a dremel and stack 2 oem retainers into the enlarged groove?
I had thought about that, but it wouldn't work with the sprocket and how the additional thickness needs to be on the inside (unless I was to have the center of the sprocket machined). If I were to double-up and have the sprocket offset, the sprockets would be around 0.085" out of alignment (the thickness of one retainer plate).

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old Feb 24th, 2009, 2:05 pm
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Machining Required...

Something you might consider (but will require some machining), and safety still needs to be the first concern, is a split retainer. These drawing (see PDF”S) were not made to any scale or accurate where they join/overlap (should be better [but what do you want in 15 mins?] and drawn just to give you the idea) so coverage is complete, no weak areas.

If you were to make a split retainer, one overlapping the other but creating a complete center circle without the spline grooves, being a few thousandths larger in diameter then the retaining groove diameter of the shaft, and a few thousandths thinner then the groove, there would only be solid material (not spline teeth) and still allow the sprocket to float. Both would have to be milled down where they overlap each other by equal amounts to retain strength, but without the spline grooves there would be more material to contact the faces of the splines since they are worn the way they are.

The wear on your shaft is a concern and will only accelerate the looser it gets. It does look bent over in your pictures but you said it wasn’t. The contact point for the retainer (leading edge of the spline at the groove – both sides of the groove) looks to be chipped or worn at an angle (chamfered) so there is less material for the retainer to stop (face) on; allowing the sprocket to move more then it should, as you know. If you were to sharpen those edges/faces (unfortunately widening the groove a small amount) it would give the retainer more surface area to stop on without getting as easily damaged.

The shaft is hardened so it won’t be that easy to sharpen the edges of the splines (carefully using a small cut-off wheel on a Die grinder or Dremel tool). I don’t know what material the clip is made from but would venture to say something like mild steel, but could be spring steel that is much harder – again, I don’t know. It needs to be softer then the shaft though. Making the retainer out of 17-4PH Stainless Steel, in raw form or heat treated it to H900 (a little bit harder then H1025 but somewhat brittle) or H1025 (softer, but somewhat stronger than but not as brittle as H900) but still way softer then the shaft and it might possibly buy you some time (when I say brittle I don’t mean it will shatter and/or chip). Even mile steel would work but wear out faster.

Keep the spline and sprocket contact points lubed with moly-grease or ? It would have to be applied often. Longer bolts would probably be needed so full engagement of the sprocket is attained. Safety wire is probably a good idea but it won’t be seeing the stresses like they were seeing, so .025 would probably be fine.

Good Luck. Hope this helps some. Sorry to hear you’re having this trouble.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf repair flange_1.SLDPRT.PDF (145.7 KB, 291 views)
File Type: pdf repair flange_2.SLDPRT.PDF (147.8 KB, 204 views)
File Type: pdf repair flange_3.SLDPRT.PDF (250.2 KB, 241 views)
File Type: pdf repair flange_4.SLDPRT.PDF (223.5 KB, 281 views)
File Type: pdf repair flange_5 SLDPRT.PDF (230.4 KB, 185 views)
File Type: pdf repair flange_6.SLDPRT.PDF (148.2 KB, 200 views)

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old Feb 24th, 2009, 6:57 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hailwood1 View Post
If you are going to replace anything I would suspect the chain would have some wear from side flexing and you may want to do chain and sprockets.
I've been seriously thinking about this the last week or so. I bought a cheapie rear sprocket and it is wearing out far faster than any sprocket I've ever had....and it's steel. I'm thinking of replacing the chain and sprockets with tax refunds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow blur View Post
Something you might consider (but will require some machining), and safety still needs to be the first concern, is a split retainer. These drawing (see PDF”S) were not made to any scale or accurate where they join/overlap (should be better [but what do you want in 15 mins?] and drawn just to give you the idea) so coverage is complete, no weak areas.
That's a pretty neat idea. It would take a bit of machining on the output shaft, which could be possible with a jig and a Dremel with a cutting wheel, but it would be a bit of work for the whole system, but probably a lot less time consuming and a lot cheaper than splitting the cases and replacing the shaft....


Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSilver View Post
The dealer designed a fix with an old countershaft sprocket, fitted behind the actual countershaft sprocket, which doesn't allow it to move back, even if the retaining clip should fail.
I think doing something like this will be a decent, temporary fix until I can come up with something else. I believe I have three or four old front sprockets laying around I can work with.



I need to quit messing with these other bikes and get back to working on my 748. It's been apart for a valve adjustment and belt change for the last.....two months. I'm such a slack-a$$.

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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 2010, 12:09 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSilver View Post
The dealer designed a fix with an old countershaft sprocket, fitted behind the actual countershaft sprocket, which doesn't allow it to move back, even if the retaining clip should fail.
The replacement sprocket retainer was trash in less than 6000 miles, so I had a buddy of mine do as your dealer had done. I had him machine off the teeth and make it just about the perfect width to barely allow a sprocket retainer. Additionally, if I want, I can use a snap ring for a retainer instead of the OEM retainer because now I no longer need to have the sprocket attached to the retainer (the retainer only needs to prevent the srocket from walking outward since the spacer eliminates inward travel).

I have over 1000 miles on this arrangement without any issues.....How has yours held up and how many miles do you have on the configuration?

Edit - I'll include some pictures if I can ever get back into my home computer (I had Windows crash and am having difficulties with repairing or reloading it).

Edit #2 to add pictures.
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Last edited by Desmo_Demon; Jun 7th, 2010 at 8:33 pm.
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 2010, 8:29 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmo_Demon View Post
The replacement sprocket retainer was trash in less than 6000 miles, so I had a buddy of mine do as your dealer had done. I had him machine off the teeth and make it just about the perfect width to barely allow a sprocket retainer. Additionally, if I want, I can use a snap ring for a retainer instead of the OEM retainer because now I no longer need to have the sprocket attached to the retainer (the retainer only needs to prevent the srocket from walking outward since the spacer eliminates inward travel).

I have over 1000 miles on this arrangement without any issues.....How has yours held up and how many miles do you have on the configuration?

Edit - I'll include some pictures if I can ever get back into my home computer (I had Windows crash and am having difficulties with repairing or reloading it).

Edit #2 to add pictures.
Is the spacer just put on the shaft or is it screwed to the sprocket?
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 2010, 11:02 am Thread Starter
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Is the spacer just put on the shaft or is it screwed to the sprocket?
It is just resting there.

With the splines ramping up to the full OD of the shaft just prior to entering the engine case, the sprocket will not go any further toward the case. Then, the new sprocket is resting against the spacer and there is about 0.010" or less of play laterally, so I can just get the sprocket retainer in and out without a much difficulty. There should essentially be no force along the shaft, so this should not pose any issues. The boogered up splines was allowing 4mm of play toward the engine when OEM should only be about 1mm, so now I have about the same lateral freeplay as stock.

If I wanted to bolt it to the backside of the sprocket, ideally I'd have to drill the threads out of the holes in the spacer because of the rare odds the threads between the spacer and the sprocket align. If it is deemed necessary, it won't take much to bolt the sprocket and spacer together....probably a carbide bit being toasted per hole (those sprockets are pretty damn hard).

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 2010, 12:05 pm
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Terry,

I once drilled a countershaft sprocket. I ground through the surface hardening and drilled/tapped it with high speed bit/tap. It appeared to be just case hardened. (aftermarket sprocket)


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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 2010, 2:34 pm Thread Starter
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I once drilled a countershaft sprocket. I ground through the surface hardening and drilled/tapped it with high speed bit/tap. It appeared to be just case hardened. (aftermarket sprocket)
Hey Marvin! Nice to see you drop in, again.

I've been fortunate to have a riding buddy modify a couple of old sprockets for me when he can sneak them into his schedule at work. The other sprocket was modified for a Paso 750 mod I'm playing around with.

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