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"Chicken Strips": Just a difference in rider position?

15K views 67 replies 29 participants last post by  BendEuroMoto 
#1 ·
So as I was sitting in the usual afternoon Tokyo traffic, I was daydreaming of sunny spring days that will hopefully be upon us all sooner than later.

Hear me out:

Theoretically speaking, a rider has two identical bikes, equipped with identical new tires, and takes a turn at the same speed with both bikes (55mph as an example).

During trial A, the rider 'hangs off' the bike so that the bike remains more upright. Same line and speed are taken through the turn.

During trial B, the rider maintains a perpindicular position to the bike running the same line and speed through the turn. (Think of it as the rider's legs gripping the tank firmly and the bike leaning more...am I right about this?)

Does rider position play a role in chicken strips? (Let's be more specific and say in the last 1/2" of the tire)

Dana

(I've noticed a rash of responses lately in other threads that offer nothing to the thread, so could we please be civil and focused?)
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Yes, riding position has a significant effect on 'chicken strip' formation as well as upon the likelihood of parts scraping.

Years ago, before the understanding of counter steering was common, riders tended to do much of their steering by shifting the position of their torso inward to initiate a turn. Racers took this very physical steering method a step further by intentionally weighting their foot pegs and/or pushing on the fuel tank with their upper leg. In either case the bike was generally kept more vertical. Since motorcycle tires did not then have the deeply curved profile they do today this was especially effective.

Today most riders learn to provide the majority of the steering input through the bars and this requires little shifting of body position to accomplish. In that case the rider and bike become a single mass with a single unmoving center and the bikes thus leans further over to make the same turn at the same speed.

Many riders these day, of course, do change their body position for a turn. For some this is for added control, for others it appears to be more a matter of style and appearance as they emulate what they see their favorite racers do.

Truth be told some also from time to time (Shhh! Don't tell!) have been known to shift their torso mass away from the direction of the turn for the very purpose of wearing away those dreaded, cred destroying, 'chicken strips.'

-don
 
#68 ·
Truth be told some also from time to time (Shhh! Don't tell!) have been known to shift their torso mass away from the direction of the turn for the very purpose of wearing away those dreaded, cred destroying, 'chicken strips.'

-
I catch my self doing that on My Multi, and Our Demo HyperMotard on tight urban corners, especially if it is slick out (like rain, or cindered road) But that is how you turn a dirt bike. Lean the bike, keep your body upright and aiming in the intended direction of travel. For some reason I feel safer going fast on slippery stuff if I use this method. After all, a hyper feels like a dirtbike.

Another thing I have noticed. I wear my Multi Stada tires to the very edge, and my Paul Smart with Pilot Powers kill the michelin man. On my SC1000 Track Bike (AKA "the bass boat") when I ride it on the road, I have at least and inch of tire that is not touching, but I am going into corners as fast or faster than on my other bikes. The profile of the power race tires is for going really fast on the track, and on the street, I do not think one can ever really use what thay have.
 
#4 ·
DUCeditor said:
Years ago, before the understanding of counter steering was common, riders tended to do much of their steering by shifting the position of their torso inward to initiate a turn.
-don
I dont think anybody has ridden anything on two wheels not countersteering, unless that was the intention. Its like driving a car around corners without turning the steering wheel the way you want to turn. If this was something recently discovered, classic bikes wouldnt have the handlebars connected to the front wheel.

Any kid learning to bicycle and later ride motorbikes, countersteer from day one and will keep doing so regardless if he or she ever hear or read the word countersteering.
 
#5 ·
+1

And neither one necessarily makes one turn quicker or slower.

mightyduc said:
Lean angle plays a role in "chicken strips" and rider position can play a role in lean angle.
 
#6 ·
True, but you can also steer by weighting the pegs which I have learned to do more on the track. It's usually a combination, but I agree especially with street riding that countersteering is one of those things people might not even realize they're doing.

Lars said:
I dont think anybody has ridden anything on two wheels not countersteering, unless that was the intention. Its like driving a car around corners without turning the steering wheel the way you want to turn. If this was something recently discovered, classic bikes wouldnt have the handlebars connected to the front wheel.

Any kid learning to bicycle and later ride motorbikes, countersteer from day one and will keep doing so regardless if he or she ever hear or read the word countersteering.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Lars said:
I dont think anybody has ridden anything on two wheels not countersteering, unless that was the intention. Its like driving a car around corners without turning the steering wheel the way you want to turn.
There is truth in what you say. In fact I edited out a sentence for the sake of brevity that mentioned that by leaning into a turn riders were unknowingly putting a countersteering pressure on the bars.

The difference between steering a car and countersteering, however, is the the former is intuitive and the later counterintuitive.

I have over the years had numerous conversations with serious, everyday bicyclists on this subject. Their lack of conscious understanding of the way they are using the handlebars on their machine is just the same as it was among self-taught motorcyclists on my generation when we, many years later, were first exposed to the concept of countersteering.

I playfully ask them which way they turn the bars to turn right at speed. They typically answer: "To the right, of course!" "You mean clockwise?" "Yes! Of course!" Then I suggest they take their bicycle out for a spin and intentionally turn their bars "right" and see which way they turn. They come back amazed, just as I did when more than 20 years after I first through a leg over a motorcycle I was challenged by a similar question.

Recently, just for the fun of it, I rode a familiar twisty road trying to use my old (circa `60s) way of steering the bike - by actively casting my body mass in the direction I wanted to turn. Did it work? Of course! Just as it would for a hands-off rider - something every 9 year old loves to do on their pedal bike. And the reason it works is that the bike's steering geometry makes the bars go into a countersteering position. But this indirect way of initiating a turn - while fun - is slow and relatively imprecise.

I imagine that younger riders find the above ridiculous. Truth be told a lot of things we did back in the `60s was just that. But I've got to tell you that despite that... we sure had a good time! :D

-don
 
#8 ·
999er said:
True, but you can also steer by weighting the pegs which I have learned to do more on the track. It's usually a combination, but I agree especially with street riding that countersteering is one of those things people might not even realize they're doing.
Keith Code is gets so unglued about this debate he built a bike with a second set of handle bars and controls mounted to the frame.

according to Keith it was IMPOSABLE to do more than make the bike wiggle and wobble when holding the frame mounted bars. He might have been able to make gentle arc's ( I don't remember the details) but insist you could not steer it in the accepted sense. I believe that is the slight line change I feel when I weight a peg in a corner.
 
#60 ·
according to Keith it was IMPOSABLE to do more than make the bike wiggle and wobble when holding the frame mounted bars.
Not true, I've ridden the bike - you can steer it, albeit slowly, just by moving your body around (working the throttle helps too, you roll off as you turn and roll on as you stand up). In order to shift your body to the right, you have to push off the left peg - that little input is the same as countersteering, and initiates a turn to the right. It has nothing to do with the bars.

It's easy to steer a bicycle riding no-handed, and motorcycles work the same way. They're just much heavier, so they turn much more slowly because moving your body around has much less impact on where the center of mass is located. To turn more rapidly than a barge riding no-handed, you really have to throw your body around.

Sounds about right... but also, you're providing an acceleration toward the center of your turn radius, which equates to a force. Your tires get more grip due to the normal force that is generated to counter-act the inner acceleration/force.
Going faster through a turn, you do put more force on the tire directed into the ground - but that's just because you need exactly that much more force, because you're also putting more force on the tire directed to the outside of the turn. If you keep leaning over more and more, you don't get more grip (in the sense of having a surplus of traction) - if this were true, no one would ever lowside.
 
#9 ·
Would you like fries with your chicken strips?

Sure nuff. I have learned and relearned when coming out of a corner to push the bike up away from me while I am hanging off to get the fat part of the tire on the pavement for a better drive out. If you hang off it allows the bike to stay more upright for a better contact patch and better traction. The faster you corner the more you will need to hang off and the steeper the lean angle will have to be to make the corner. It is all about counter balancing the weight of the bike and centrifugal force.
I worry not about chicken strips on my bikes anymore. On the street you should have them and it tells me I am being good and will most likely live to ride again tomorrow. On the track they are not there to worry about anyway and all I am concerned with is what the tire surface looks like as it can tell me what is going on with the bikes suspension if I pay attention.
A side note to tire profile though for example a 190 tire on a 5.5 inch wide rear wheel will leave you with chicken strips. To quote a friend of mine "To lean the bike over far enough to use the entire tire surface you are crashing".
On my 1098 with the stock Pirelli tires I have chicken strips on the front of about 1/16th to 1/8th depending on which side of the tire I look at. I was at VIR with the bike and there are more high speed right turns than left turns so I could expect this. Over all what this is telling me is that I am using the entire surface of the tire and so to go faster I have to turn quicker and or hang off more. Listen to what your tires are telling you not your friends.
Your tires will inform you, your friends will tease you. Consider me a friend.
 

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#10 ·
You use a combo of the two...the countersteering typically initiates then the pegs is a reinforcement especially when you're way down and trying to keep the bike centered. Countersteering is great but you need to be careful not to push too hard in corners at the same time by doing it right. You always want to keep the bike as upright as possible especially getting it there ASAP out of a corner and that's where the pegs come in too, you weight the outside peg to stand up the bike while doing some percentage countersteering. Depends on leverage you have and preference too.

In the rain this takes another twist because you lean to the inside and keeping the bike straight up weight the outside peg as opposed to the inside peg, almost like a dirtbike.

teatotler said:
Keith Code is gets so unglued about this debate he built a bike with a second set of handle bars and controls mounted to the frame.

according to Keith it was IMPOSABLE to do more than make the bike wiggle and wobble when holding the frame mounted bars. He might have been able to make gentle arc's ( I don't remember the details) but insist you could not steer it in the accepted sense. I believe that is the slight line change I feel when I weight a peg in a corner.
 
#12 ·
Exactly...it's not about lean angle or dragging your knee. They told us at the track to conserve lean angle to keep the contact patch as large as possible. Makes sense and plus they provide a visual of the contact oval with the left side sliced off a bit to show what happens when you do get to the edge of that tire.

This stuff is not easy and I don't pretend to be good at it...but it's interesting and I look forward to next track season.

Sagerider said:
Sure nuff. I have learned and relearned when coming out of a corner to push the bike up away from me while I am hanging off to get the fat part of the tire on the pavement for a better drive out. If you hang off it allows the bike to stay more upright for a better contact patch and better traction. The faster you corner the more you will need to hang off and the steeper the lean angle will have to be to make the corner. It is all about counter balancing the weight of the bike and centrifugal force.
I worry not about chicken strips on my bikes anymore. On the street you should have them and it tells me I am being good and will most likely live to ride again tomorrow. On the track they are not there to worry about anyway and all I am concerned with is what the tire surface looks like as it can tell me what is going on with the bikes suspension if I pay attention.
A side note to tire profile though for example a 190 tire on a 5.5 inch wide rear wheel will leave you with chicken strips. To quote a friend of mine "To lean the bike over far enough to use the entire tire surface you are crashing".
On my 1098 with the stock Pirelli tires I have chicken strips on the front of about 1/16th to 1/8th depending on which side of the tire I look at. I was at VIR with the bike and there are more high speed right turns than left turns so I could expect this. Over all what this is telling me is that I am using the entire surface of the tire and so to go faster I have to turn quicker and or hang off more. Listen to what your tires are telling you not your friends.
Your tires will inform you, your friends will tease you. Consider me a friend.
 
#13 ·
999er said:
Exactly...it's not about lean angle or dragging your knee. They told us at the track to conserve lean angle to keep the contact patch as large as possible. Makes sense and plus they provide a visual of the contact oval with the left side sliced off a bit to show what happens when you do get to the edge of that tire.

This stuff is not easy and I don't pretend to be good at it...but it's interesting and I look forward to next track season.
Yes, its very wise to conserve lean angle, but its very hard to decipher what is too much lean angle. I've found that having somebody take pix/video of you riding in corners, is very crucial for analyzing. I initially thought my lean angle was plenty, it was just like everyone else's and any farther would be too much. After analyzing the pix, I could clearly see I had PLENTY of room to lean over. I think most track day providers psych you into believing you'll "run out" of contact patch quickly. But in reality, unless your already going super fast in the corners, you'll probably be fine.

I'm doing around 80 or so in the first picture, exiting onto the main straight. The second pix is like 50 or so and I could have grabbed knee, but again, still not going fast enough! In both pix you can clearly see I've got plenty of contact patch left... and there isn't any reason for dragging knee.






 
#14 ·
Yip...I've almost dumped by overcorrecting. Not to look cool, I just thought it was the right thing to do at the moment and almost fell INTO the corner. Rookie... :eek:
 
#15 ·
999er said:
Yip...I've almost dumped by overcorrecting. Not to look cool, I just thought it was the right thing to do at the moment and almost fell INTO the corner. Rookie... :eek:
Yes, overcorrecting can be bad for your paint job! lol :rolleyes:
I had to correct doing a buck coming out of a corner as some tard tried to squeeze on the inside of me. Always remember, you can lean over more, the faster you go. If you don't have the speed, you won't get it to grip.



 
#16 ·
tye1138 said:
...you can lean over more, the faster you go. If you don't have the speed, you won't get it to grip.
I'd find it interested to hear the physics of that explained.

-don
 
#17 ·
If you have chicken strips, whether you hang off or not, it means you are not using all of your tire. And having no chicken strips is not a sign that you have reached the limits of lean angle either. If you want to corner fast (that is if you are not fast already) I wouldn't get too carried away with the idea of conserving lean angle. So long as you are riding smoothly and on "good tires" you will drag toe sliders and hard parts before you reach the tires' limits.

I'm not saying that lean angle is a gauge for the fastest way through a turn, as our line may be screwy, or we started the turn too soon.

I say get cheaply painted track bodywork and go faster
 
#18 ·
I think I know what you're trying to say...that for most this will never be an issue right?

However you probably won't convince anyone who has lowsided that you don't want to conserve lean angle. You conserve lean angle so that the bike stays as upright as possible where it is most stable and contact patch is optimized. Lean angle is what you preserve and use last if you can.

Herbivator said:
If you have chicken strips, whether you hang off or not, it means you are not using all of your tire. And having no chicken strips is not a sign that you have reached the limits of lean angle either. If you want to corner fast (that is if you are not fast already) I wouldn't get too carried away with the idea of conserving lean angle. So long as you are riding smoothly and on "good tires" you will drag toe sliders and hard parts before you reach the tires' limits.

I'm not saying that lean angle is a gauge for the fastest way through a turn, as our line may be screwy, or we started the turn too soon.

I say get cheaply painted track bodywork and go faster
 
#19 ·
I assume he means centrifugal force to carry you through the turn and maybe even deformation of the tire as a result of that if he's talking grip.

DUCeditor said:
I'd find it interested to hear the physics of that explained.

-don
 
#20 ·
Herbivator said:
So long as you are riding smoothly and on "good tires" you will drag toe sliders and hard parts before you reach the tires' limits.

I say get cheaply painted track bodywork and go faster
LOL! I mean, thats straight up the truth! Glad to see somebody who knows somethin! :D


999er said:
I assume he means centrifugal force to carry you through the turn and maybe even deformation of the tire as a result of that if he's talking grip.
Yep! Try it sometime on a corner you know well. Go slow, get comfortable and then increase speed. The centrifugal force will keep your tires planted and the faster you go through a corner, the more they'll grip because they're getting hotter = better grip! Of course, this is why softer compound racing tires exist and why a lot of people can leave black lines through a corner! Someday I'll do that, not today.... :rolleyes:



 
#57 ·
LOL! I mean, thats straight up the truth! Glad to see somebody who knows somethin! :D




Yep! Try it sometime on a corner you know well. Go slow, get comfortable and then increase speed. The centrifugal force will keep your tires planted and the faster you go through a corner, the more they'll grip because they're getting hotter = better grip! Of course, this is why softer compound racing tires exist and why a lot of people can leave black lines through a corner! Someday I'll do that, not today.... :rolleyes:
Sounds about right... but also, you're providing an acceleration toward the center of your turn radius, which equates to a force. Your tires get more grip due to the normal force that is generated to counter-act the inner acceleration/force.

I believe this is right, been a while since I took physics/vehicle dynamics.
 
#21 ·
I gotcha...keep in mind it's also the deformation of the tire and not just the heat. Tires deform and mold to the road differently, part of the reason racers use 16.5 wheels. Tires are also different shapes and heights even in the same size. (I found out how dramatic the differences are last weekend)

Oh and those black strips look cool but can result in cold tears and highsides...be careful! :D

tye1138 said:
LOL! I mean, thats straight up the truth! Glad to see somebody who knows somethin! :D




Yep! Try it sometime on a corner you know well. Go slow, get comfortable and then increase speed. The centrifugal force will keep your tires planted and the faster you go through a corner, the more they'll grip because they're getting hotter = better grip! Of course, this is why softer compound racing tires exist and why a lot of people can leave black lines through a corner! Someday I'll do that, not today.... :rolleyes:
 
#22 ·
Sagerider said:
A side note to tire profile though for example a 190 tire on a 5.5 inch wide rear wheel will leave you with chicken strips. To quote a friend of mine "To lean the bike over far enough to use the entire tire surface you are crashing".
I'm pretty sure I've posted this pic here before, but what the heck, it's one of my faves. a 190 tire (stock size) on a 5.5. rim. It was replaced with a 180 soon after this.

Ya want chicken strips? Here ya go...

 
#23 ·
Why a 180? That tire can definitely go over more than that...

Also looks like perhaps a little too much drive out of the turns...are those some small cold tears?



DesmoDog said:
I'm pretty sure I've posted this pic here before, but what the heck, it's one of my faves. a 190 tire (stock size) on a 5.5. rim. It was replaced with a 180 soon after this.

Ya want chicken strips? Here ya go...

 
#25 ·
Dana said:
During trial B, the rider maintains a perpindicular position to the bike running the same line and speed through the turn. (Think of it as the rider's legs gripping the tank firmly and the bike leaning more...am I right about this?)
No. Perpendicular means "T", or 90 degrees to. There is a right angle relationship between two objects. For example, a motorcycle being ridden down a straight road running through Kansas. The motorcycle is straight up and the road is flat. The combined rider and motorcycle are perpendicular to the road.

What you are describing is the rider positioned on-center with the bike, rather than off-center, or hanging off.
 
#26 ·
I can't tell if you're kidding...

Herbivator said:
Wait a sec. Too much drive out of the turns is a bad thing?
 
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