We've got a few guys riding the Hyper filter now - nothing but really positive feedback thus far. MWR is making amazing filters and filter kits. We've got around 300 filters from them on the shelf right now including both of the Hyper options

 

ok cool thanks desmoworks...i'll be sure to have a look on you're site..i was told the airbox was modified for the 2010 model :think:..do you know if the lid size is the same..?? or is there a new filter for my model 2010 evo sp

many thanks

 

I don't have them up yet... haven't had the time to post them unfortunately. I will have them posted shortly though!

$189 for the full box kit and $129 for the lid removale and filter.

Anthony Creek

 

great thanks Anthony...i have heard the full bore lid kit is around 6hp..look fwd to any more info or feedback from owners out there

 

I'll post a dyno chart shortly...

 

Here is a dyno chart for a Hypermotard with the full lid kit. This bike was already running with an open exhaust, power commander and K&N filter.

They only change was replacing the K&N filter for the MWR filter kit.

 

thats a fat increase looks to be as good as velocity stacks...assuming the graph is legit. i have had alot of experience in cars...turbo's in particular (retaining or increasing the size of the std airbox is generally the best option, and adding better filtration..i have no knowledge on bikes though, esp air cooled ones . to know better..j

 

The owner of MWR said that both filter kits will work on the 2010 Hyper. The lid is redesigned on the 2010, but the mounting points are the same.

 

Could someone help out with understanding that dyno graph. On a scaled graphs with hp vs tq the lines will cross at 5252 rpms. On non scaled graphs hp and tq will still be equal at 5252 but may cross lines at different rpm. I'm not sure what that graph is showing because it is a scaled graph but lines are weird, I'm assuming its measuring something else, but can't read what?

 

The chart is power (PS) and torque (Nm) as labeled. All that matters is the gains made and you can work them into a percent no matter what the unit of measure is. HP/TQ are slightly less than PS/Nm, but I'd still say the dyno is optimistic compared to what we regualrly see for output numbers.

That doesn't matter though - the numbers are relative to eachother since both runs were done on the same dyno under the same conditions and that is what matters. The percent change is what is important.

 

Since that kit also seems to fit HYM796...
Anyone seen a dyno chart of it installed on 796?

 

The reason I was questioning about the graph is because that is the biggest gain I have seen from one single mod. I have seen graphs of stock vs exhaust, filter, cams, etc not show an increase like that. For $189 this would be the best mod by far if the graph is legit. I also see that one run is #54 vs #70 that's 24 run difference for one mod. What else was done during those 24 runs? I would buy this airbox in a second if those are realistic gains, can anyone else verify gains? thanks

 

The run difference would be for the mapping. You can't stick a filter like this on and not map! The bike already had the PC and other items on which were in the first run... the only added part added was the filter (and the K&N removed) then the tuning was adjusted again.

This graph is not from MWR. They don't post any of their development charts. Wilco said there is no point as customers never believe a graph supplied by a manufacturer so he relies on independent dealers to post their findings such as the graph above. Here is another example from a different dealer... it is a SportClassic instead of a Hyper, but same MWR kit.

It was installed without adjusting the tune so it doesn't have as good of a gain, but it isn't bad! The dealer info is on the page so you could call for more info.

Ducati Kamna is also a distributor and they brand their MWR products with their own name so the Kamna Purtech air filter kit and airbox mod is actually the MWR kit with a Kamna logo on it. Kamna has several charts on their site as well.

 

I am not trying to start an arguement here I just want to get the facts. I built and dyno tuned cars for many years so I know how to properly read a dyno graph and see common "issues". A dyno graph must be fully examined to understand the gains, if any. The first graph seemed like huge gains for one mod and other factors seemed fishy. Tuning for 24 runs, seems fishy. In the second graph again what are we looking at, on left scale is 0 to 125, rpms across bottom and 0-22 across right. Showing a graph with two different runs means nothing if you cant see what's being displayed, what runs being compared, correction factor for runs, smoothing factor. Please don't take this as an attack, but I have seen dyno runs be misinterpreted all the time and graphs can look different by something as easy as changing the smoothing or changing graph to read hp vs time.

 

The first graph seemed like huge gains for one mod and other factors seemed fishy. Tuning for 24 runs, seems fishy.

I'd be curious why you would think 24 runs seems fishy? How could you even draw that conclusion not knowing anything about their tuning setup? To even guess how many runs are appropriate you would need to know if they are using auto tuning software, are they mapping individually cylinders, how experienced is the tuner, how perfect are they trying to make the fuel curve, etc...

In the second graph again what are we looking at, on left scale is 0 to 125, rpms across bottom and 0-22 across right. Showing a graph with two different runs means nothing if you cant see what's being displayed, what runs being compared, correction factor for runs, smoothing factor.

Having different scales doesn't matter as the measurements you are comparing are on the same scale. It is important to know correction factor (smoothing not as much because it is obvious), but I have to assume that when reputable dealers post graphs they are not doing an BS dyno operator tricks. I could be wrong, but I don't immediately go for the worst in people so I assume the other direction. The shops name/number is on the chart - you could contact them if you are concerned about it.

Please don't take this as an attack.

I don't take it as an attack at all. They aren't my charts - just charts I've found or received from others who have tested with these filters and are posted for reference. You can question them all you want and it won't hurt my feelings

 

Anybody with experience tuning would agree that 24 runs is excessively high to tune in an air filter kit, so I guess the answer to my question is the tuner for this particular bike was an idiot. I'm still interested in kit if others have had similar gains.

 

I really hope you are kidding with that statement. If not you either embellished your tuning experience or you are the idiot (your term). 24 runs is NOTHING for a custom tune. 2 cylinders with 6 throttle positions and 2 runs for each will get to 24 and a real tune will have far more than 6 throttle positions and unless auto tuning software is used it will be be more than 2 runs for each position. This must be a joke. :think:

 

I dont want to argue but must say what kind of tuner would adjust one tps portion of table at a time, if bike needs 10% more fuel at 100%tps then it probably needs 10% more fuel at 90% tps, same would hold true for second cylinder. I love it when people try to make tuning out to be something that its not, this always shows inexperience. Make a blanket percentage change to whole table and then just a few fine tunes. You are also forgeting that when doing a "dyno pull", you are at WOT, 100%tps, which is just one portion of table. A tuner would not log hp/tq runs at low tps settings, you could just continue to cruise on drum for that. I don't know anyone that has dyno pulls for lets say 60% tps, those runs are never logged. As for the idiot comment, I'll leave that alone but it does show me what kind of person you are since you know nothing about me.

 

As for the idiot comment, I'll leave that alone but it does show me what kind of person you are since you know nothing about me.

That's the point. I know nothing about you and you know nothing about the dyno operator you termed an idiot. Funny you get a little righteous when YOUR phrase is used at you under the same circumstance as you used it.

I dont want to argue but must say what kind of tuner would adjust one tps portion of table at a time, if bike needs 10% more fuel at 100%tps then it probably needs 10% more fuel at 90% tps, same would hold true for second cylinder.

This is absolutely incorrect. The front and rear cylinders are VASTLY different on Ducati motorcycles. A correction for the horizontal cylinder means NOTHING for the vertical. I don't know ANY experienced tuner that tunes the way you suggest. It's just silly to assume blanket changes like that because the tune would be total garbage.

You are also forgeting that when doing a "dyno pull", you are at WOT, 100%tps, which is just one portion of table. A tuner would not log hp/tq runs at low tps settings, you could just continue to cruise on drum for that. I don't know anyone that has dyno pulls for lets say 60% tps, those runs are never logged.

Again, you are saying inexperience for others (directed at me), but you are showing yours. Using an eddy current dyno, which everyone uses if they are making a custom map, you absolutely are doing partial throttle settings as well as WOT under load to obtain accurate A/F readings at many different RPMs. It would be impossible to create a full map without it. If you map only WOT you get no benefit because WOT is used far less than say 60% throttle opening. Tuning only for WOT is just to show some blow-hard a top end hp number. That is bike night tuning.

I believe you are joking and are just trying to stir shit up because you can't be an experienced tuner as you claim - not with the garbage you are posting.

 

Please read my post again, I said that you don't "LOG" pulls at low tps, your low tps setting tuning is done by rolling on dyno and not logging it as a hp/tq run. Yes different tps settings runs are made but the button to log run is not pushed. A tuner could make 20 runs at low tps but would only "log" 100% tps because thats all the customer wants to see, no body wants to see their hp/tq curve for 60% tps. Let me also inform everyone that if someone is talking to you about tuning individual cylinders you had better make sure that they drill holes and weld o2 bungs into each header, when the dyno sniffer is stuffed down your muffler it is getting a mix of both cylinders, this would make it impossible to individually tune. I must assume that desmoworks drills and welds bungs for all ducati's to individually tune. I would also hope we could keep this civil and not personnal, I have not made any insults towards you. I am just trying to learn and also help others learn about things I know so they don't get taken by bad tuners.

 

Please read my post again, I said that you don't "LOG" pulls at low tps, your low tps setting tuning is done by rolling on dyno and not logging it as a hp/tq run. Yes different tps settings runs are made but the button to log run is not pushed. A tuner could make 20 runs at low tps but would only "log" 100% tps because thats all the customer wants to see, no body wants to see their hp/tq curve for 60% tps.

Of course you log EVERY pull. You log it and analyze the date otherwise why would you even make a pull? TQ is logged and HP automatically calculated, at the same time A/F is logged unless you aren't using an A/F system that is integrated with the dyno, which would not be the norm for motorcycle dyos.

There would be no real reason to look at HP/TQ at 60%, but an informed customer sure as hell will want to see the A/F ratio at 60% throttle for a myriad of RPM ranges as those are values that matter to them. To have these results and to effectively tune you absolutely have to log your runs.

Let me also inform everyone that if someone is talking to you about tuning individual cylinders you had better make sure that they drill holes and weld o2 bungs into each header, when the dyno sniffer is stuffed down your muffler it is getting a mix of both cylinders, this would make it impossible to individually tune.

Many aftermarket exhaust systems come with O2 sensor bungs welded on for this purpose. There are also adapters that can be used for tuning work on the smaller diagnostic ports included on all OEM Ducati exhausts which can retrofit O2 sensors.

You would only need to weld on a bung if the exhaust didn't have either the diagnostic ports or O2 sensor bungs to begin with - which is not many cases on modern Ducatis.

I must assume that desmoworks drills and welds bungs for all ducati's to individually tune.

It is ridiculous to even ask that. If the bike does not already have O2 sensor bungs or diagnostic ports that we can use our adapter on then yes - we would obviously have to have O2 sensor ports welded on. There would be no other way to create a map with individually tuned cylinders.

I would also hope we could keep this civil and not personnal, I have not made any insults towards you. I am just trying to learn and also help others learn about things I know so they don't get taken by bad tuners.

I honestly do not think you are helping anyone. I think you are spreading misinformation and that is not okay. I do not believe that you are an experienced tuner. With all the information you've supplied in this thread most is either in part or completely incorrect.

I don't know you and have no personal feeling towards you except I feel you shouldn't be trying to present yourself as an authority as you clearly are not.

Prove me wrong though. Post some of your dyno charts for various Ducati models. Show us how great you are at creating complete custom maps in less than 24 runs since you claim only an idiot would take 24 runs (even my girlfriend who knows nothing about the tuning laughed at that one).

 

The man behind MWR, Wilco, monitors the internet as well and asked me to include his response to this developing thread just so you can hear it from the source.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Motorcycle friends,

I would like give a reaction on the discussion that's going on on this page.

Our policy is to get the power curves from public dyno centers so everybody can see what will be done on the bike and when we publish the power curves or somebody else publish it it will be done with full honesty.

Mr. Keamna is one of the oldest and most respected tuners in Europe, he has Ducati in his blood and no Dollar signs in his eyes. His honesty is in Europe no discussion and nobody outside of Europe has the right to misjudge him when you don't know him.

The airbox of the Hypermotard is quit a lot restricted , the engine must breath trough a whole with a diam. of 60 mm. When you place a filter below this cover that is twice or three times bigger as the OEM filter, it won't get better performance because it can only manage the air coming through this little whole of 60mm.That's why our "little" filter increases the power because it has a whole with the diam. of 85 mm
Customers wanted more BHP and we made the "racing air filter", it has 13 times more surface of breathing. And with a increase of 1300% of inlet surface it will work on the Hypermotard 796 as well. How much? Depents on exhaust, electronics and race parts which are already installed.

When a tuning center is going to do this filter kit for the first time with so much increase in air flow it needs a lot of runs, and I'am 100% sure when they did 24 runs more they even found more power, a proffesional tuner knows that you never done working on the electronics of a bike. I'm in good contact with several WSBK, WSS and MotoGP teams and they do more then a hundred runs to get 0.5 sec. faster on the track.

Another issue of course is money, how much money the costumer wants to spend on the dyno, what costumers expect, do they want to go to the limit.

2 Month ago desmoworks recieved the first filters,when he is sold out now already is not without a reason, it's a pitty that none of the costumers are member of this forum otherwise this discussion has never took place.

The same counts for the new Monster, it's even worse than the Hypermotard, they have a closed cover on top of the air filter, it must breath through two little wholes on the left & right. This is the reason that the termi's or any other exhaust are not so effective, when there is no air coming in, it also can't come out !!

I think with our filter (which increases the inlet surface 300%) the exhausts will get more effective and increases the performance. Unfortunately due to the shape of the airbox we can't make a big filter like the Hypermotard.

You want more performance from your bike with a different air filter, we have it and my opinion is, that this discussion should go about how to solve the fuel ratio, because a increase of 1300% of inlet surface brings questions.

I'm sure Mr. Anthony Creek can advise you with this and have solutions for these questions.

We will be collecting power curves, but the way we do this it will take a little bit more time, but it's the honest way and of course we need a little help from the costumers.

Kind Regards


co / Wilco van Zutphen
MWR AIRFILTERS
www.racingairfilter.eu
info@racingairfilters.eu
+32497538978

 

Anthony, so how does this filter change the sound of the intake? Do you get that louder whoosh and deep vaccum sound? Is it similar to running stacks and filters or pods?

Out!

 

It is louder than stock, but not louder than running pod filters. The HE filters were developed to reduce intake noise (in Europe it is a much bigger issue than here - so far). In developing these filters MWR found they were able to reduce noise (8db on some models) and increase power over the standard race type filters from MWR and other brands such as Pipercross and K&N.

There is no filter with the same design for the Hypermotard though so direct sound comparisons with this filter would be hard!

 

I have never seen any tuner that logs part-throttle runs. Just so we are both on the same sheet of paper when I say log I mean to push green button for dyno software to starting calculating HP, now you can sit on drum and tune different tps settings all day long without ever "logging" a run. My setup allowed me to watch AFR real time so I could continually keep driving around and making changes without ever "logging" a run. Most tuners watch AFR during run to ensure of overlean conditions especially when tuning forced inductions motors. The only data the dyno is giving someone is hp,tq,and afr. Hp and tq don't need to be analyzed at part throttle so why log run? For me to post graphs means nothing. I also don't see why you keep making personnal attacks at me. As far as spreading misinformation I would have to say that for a company to post up dyno graphs and say I quote
"Here is a dyno chart for a Hypermotard with the full lid kit. This bike was already running with an open exhaust, power commander and K&N filter.

They only change was replacing the K&N filter for the MWR filter kit.

For the uninformed customer it sure sounds like buy filter kit from you, install in bike and make same increase as graph you posted. My wife was laughing at this statement, maybe we should get both wives together so they can both laugh. I will end by saying again I'm still interested in filter kit, has anyone on board tried it. I apologize to others on board for having to deal with the difference between desmoworks and myself.

 

I have never seen any tuner that logs part-throttle runs. Just so we are both on the same sheet of paper when I say log I mean to push green button for dyno software to starting calculating HP, now you can sit on drum and tune different tps settings all day long without ever "logging" a run.

Yes this is how everyone with a dyno logs a run. Here is info on the most commonly used dyno in the American motorcycle industry: http://www.dynojet.com/motorcycle_dyno/250i_dyno/Default.aspx

This dyno logs the A/F ratio so appropriate changes can be made.

My setup allowed me to watch AFR real time so I could continually keep driving around and making changes without ever "logging" a run. Most tuners watch AFR during run to ensure of overlean conditions especially when tuning forced inductions motors.

All the motorcycle dynos I'm aware of show the A/F ratio in real time as well, but to me this sounds absolutely insane. How could you ever make a map without logging the A/F ratio? There is no way someone could effectively build a map by remembering what they see during the run. There is simply no way this is possible.

The only data the dyno is giving someone is hp,tq,and afr. Hp and tq don't need to be analyzed at part throttle so why log run?

Again, you have to log the run so you can analyze the A/F data and make the appropriate changes. Setting up the dyno to do step tests will allow you to log say 25% throttle at 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, etc... RPM. With this data you can tune at all these positions. If you don't log it how the hell would you make the appropriate changes!?

For me to post graphs means nothing. I also don't see why you keep making personnal attacks at me. As far as spreading misinformation I would have to say that for a company to post up dyno graphs and say I quote "Here is a dyno chart for a Hypermotard with the full lid kit. This bike was already running with an open exhaust, power commander and K&N filter.

They only change was replacing the K&N filter for the MWR filter kit.

For the uninformed customer it sure sounds like buy filter kit from you, install in bike and make same increase as graph you posted. My wife was laughing at this statement, maybe we should get both wives together so they can both laugh.

Everywhere the filters are sold it says you have to flash the ECU or tune with a power commander type device. We have never said to stick a MWR filter on and go nor would we.

Would you understand better if I said, "The only hard parts change was replacing the K&N filter for the MWR filter kit"? The point (which you missed) of the sentence was that only the filter was changed - exhaust, pistons, valves, ECU, PC, etc... all remained the same. It goes without saying that a major change to the air flow would require a remap. I wouldn't think we have to take it down to such a basic level - to me these things go without saying. Who would expect these gains by bolting something on without tuning

So there is no misinformation - just misinterpretation.

I asked in a previous post and you ignored it so I'll say it again - post some of your dyno work. I'm sure we are all very curious to see it

 

Maybe this chart will please you more since it shows correction factor, smoothing and has matching scales. It's hard to imagine though - the result is nearly the same. There are tons of other charts exactly like his on this very forum as that kit has been available for a while.

In his words:

What is exciting is the results - just from bolting on the intake and the PCIII

And his chart:

And his post:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showpost.php?p=900676&postcount=141

 

Would the mwr kit and a PC-5 + Autotuner be a good idea for 796 hyper?
I got the dp underseat slips with dp-ecu, and also LeoVince Decat.
I dont really feel like spending a crapload of cash on custom mapping/tuning each cylinder, thats a bit overkill for me I think, especially since there are no dp cams for 796(?).

 

The only problem with the PCV and auto tune is that the 796 is a partially closed loop system so in the closed loop portion of the mapping (less than 20% throttle and somewhere around 4500 RPM) the PCV won't be able to alter the actual fuel curve. Even the DP ECU retains the O2 sensors so the DP ECU and the OEM ECU have the same A/F targets, which is not optimal.

You'll have to first eliminate the O2 sensors and then you can move forward with the PCV and auto tune to create your own maps. Shortly you'll be able to flash your ECU and remove the O2 sensors making the system completely open loop. That will be the best way to go as then you'll be able to properly tune.

 

I am starting to think that desmoworks does not do any dyno tuning or installs. I am starting to think that he uses other peoples dyno graphs to help him sell his products. I see this all the time where a customer has purchased a product from on online company and was told that all he has to do is remove his filter and install new filter to make big power. Businesses that don't do tuning or install's always promise the world because they don't have to do anything other than sell product. The bad guy is the local shop that charges guy lets say $300-500 for tuning of product purchased. Customer is confused because company on internet said only thing done was replaced filter. This all started because I asked a few questions about the graph desmoworks posted for a product he sells. I will say it again dyno graphs are worthless unless you can tell whats being shown in graph. If your going to post up graphs of increases for products you sell I would hope they are your graphs so you can fully explain to customer what is needed to achieve gains. Selling the product is only a small portion of the equation, getting the product onto vehicle and getting product tuned for vehicle if needed is large portion. There are products that can be installed for gains with no tuning and there are other products that will require time and money for tuning, I wanted to know which product this was. Again you stated, THE ONLY CHANGE WAS REPLACING K&N WITH MWR FILTER KIT.

 

Here you go with more trolling. Why not just give it up. You've made zero progress in this thread and have shown you don't know what you are talking about over and over again, yet you keep posting. When do you decide to give up?

You won't post any of your work (or even acknowledge I've asked for it several times) nor do you post ANYTHING of value. Your posts are a total waste of bandwidth. Have you noticed you are the ONLY person trying to fight this fight? Have you noticed nobody is sticking up for you?

I am starting to think that desmoworks
does not do any dyno tuning or installs. I am starting to think that he uses other peoples dyno graphs to help him sell his products.

I haven't done any tuning work with the MWR filters yet. The dynojet 250i I owned stayed in KY with the business I left there in order to start up a new business in Los Angeles. So for the last two months I've had no dyno access. We are working on getting another dyno though so I'll be back up and running in this regard in the fall.

Before the move we used a 250i and before that a 150. I've had training on tuning motorcycle from dynojet themselves as well as Doug Lofgren, who is the premier Ducati tuner. I'm experienced with tuning Ducati's and Triumphs with Nemesis, tuneboy, RapidBike and Power Commander.

Until we have a dyno installed at our new shop I have to rely on other tuners for MWR charts. The charts I'm posting are from some of the most respected tuners in Europe.

I see this all the time where a customer has purchased a product from on online company and was told that all he has to do is remove his filter and install new filter to make big power. Businesses that don't do tuning or install's always promise the world because they don't have to do anything other than sell product. The bad guy is the local shop that charges guy lets say $300-500 for tuning of product purchased. Customer is confused because company on internet said only thing done was replaced filter. This all started because I asked a few questions about the graph desmoworks posted for a product he sells. I will say it again dyno graphs are worthless unless you can tell whats being shown in graph. If your going to post up graphs of increases for products you sell I would hope they are your graphs so you can fully explain to customer what is needed to achieve gains. Selling the product is only a small portion of the equation, getting the product onto vehicle and getting product tuned for vehicle if needed is large portion. There are products that can be installed for gains with no tuning and there are other products that will require time and money for tuning, I wanted to know which product this was. Again you stated, THE ONLY CHANGE WAS REPLACING K&N WITH MWR FILTER KIT.

You really don't catch on do you? Everything you say is either incorrect or such basic common knowledge that it goes without saying.

I'll say this once more as you obviously aren't comprehending it. The only hardware change was the filter. Yes the bike was re-tuned... that goes without saying. Anytime a performance part is added or subtracted the mapping will need to be adjusted.

You really are grasping for anything to try to start arguments aren't you? You had nothing good for the tuning discussion and now you have moved on to attacking my company saying we are telling people that they can install a filter and have magic gains.

You are an absolute idiot based upon your postings here and I hope you go away soon as you are wasting my time.

Why not do something productive rather than being a computer cowboy trying to (but utterly failing) impress everyone with your bogus knowledge.

 

The number of a persons post count doesn't equal the person knowledge but I know to some they think it does. Forums are about sharing knowledge and also discussing differences of opinions. I understand now that I shouldn't question a product someone is selling on here and if they say it'll make 1000 horse then just believe them. As I stated before I built and dyno tuned drag "cars" for many years, if you would like to see graphs of domestic v8 cars then I could post them for you but again why. We also had the first dyno-jet dyno in hawaii. When hawaii lost our track I got out of cars and moved on. A motor is just a big air pump and for performance you try to make the air pump as efficent as possible. The ducati V-twin is not some mythological motor that works any differently. If desmoworks does things the way he says he does then all I got to say is wow! I am still confused why he couldn't answer a few question about the graph posted and why any "tuner" would post a graph that didn't clearly show pertinant info that someone would look for. I guess showing a graph with one line higher than the other is good for some, but people that work dyno's know peak numbers and two different lines on sheet mean nothing. If there are people reading through these post wondering what to believe my advice would be call dyno-jet and talk to a rep ask them about how to read a graph and what to look for, because if someone tells you to just look at the differences between two lines, again that means nothing without knowing others factors which I was trying to get from desmoworks. How about getting a rep from dynojet to come into forum and teach all of us how to read graphs and what's important, then we'll see who's talking crap. They after all are probably the largest manufacturer of dynos and motorcyle tuning software.

 

As I stated before I built and dyno tuned drag "cars" for many years

Why do you think you can talk as an authority on tuning motorcycles if you've NEVER TUNED ONE? You're a typical keyboard mechanic. Getting on the internet and telling people how to do things you've never done yourself. Tuning a drag car is NOTHING like tuning a motorcycle. Drag cars are about max tq at 100% throttle. Ducati Hypermotards are about improving rideability, throttle response, etc... throughout the RPM range - full throttle is the least of the Hypers concerns with regards to mapping.

I understand now that I shouldn't question a product someone is selling on here and if they say it'll make 1000 horse then just believe them.

That's not it at all, but I'm not surprised you think it is as you've been missing the point this entire thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning a product, but you got on here claiming to be some kind of tuner and then you've shown over and over you know nothing about tuning.

If you have first hand knowledge of a products short comings, etc... then it is absolutely appropriate to start a discussion about it. I'm sure you never heard of MWR until this thread and I'm sure you haven't even looked into their filters or what makes them different or the MotoGP, WSS, WSBK, BSB and TT riders who use them - not because they were given to them, but because they tested them and found MWRs filters to make the most power.

As I stated before I built and dyno tuned drag "cars" for many years, if you would like to see graphs of domestic v8 cars then I could post them for you but again why.

Yep, post em. Show me some A/F charts of the tuning work you've done. I don't care about power/torque or peak numbers. I specifically want to see part throttle A/F charts that you made without logging the A/F ratio. Remember when you said you just watch it in real time then make adjustments - I'd love to see the results of that!

If desmoworks does things the way he says he does then all I got to say is wow!

The tuning process I described is what EVERYONE does - expect you apparently. There is no way to create a proper map without tuning part throttle and to tune partial throttle at different RPMs you need a dyno with an Eddy-Current load cell and you HAVE to log the A/F ratio in order to study the data and make the necessary adjustments.

If you don't believe me call up Dynojet. Their auto tune software as well as standard dyno programs are setup to do exactly the process I described. Step tests with the load cell to map various RPM points at various throttle inputs. There is absolutely no way you know anything about tuning a motorcycle if you say the methods I've described aren't the standard. That's what most obviously gives you away as a fraud - trying to deny basic tuning principals! What a joke.

I am still confused why he couldn't answer a few question about the graph posted and why any "tuner" would post a graph that didn't clearly show pertinant info that someone would look for. I guess showing a graph with one line higher than the other is good for some, but people that work dyno's know peak numbers and two different lines on sheet mean nothing.

Your reading comprehension is so poor I'm not even sure what to say here. I've said repeatedly that the charts posted aren't mine and that if you need more info on them to contact the tuner. I DO NOT HAVE ANY FURTHER INFORMATION ON THE GRAPHS. What is it that you don't understand about that? As Wilco of MWR said the graphs are from one of the most respected tuners in Europe.

I don't think you even know how to read a dyno chart though. You keep bringing up the scale, but that simply does not matter at all because you are only comparing the two runs on the torque scale or the two runs on the horsepower scale; runs using the exact same scale so the comparison is completely valid.

The only info you want that is missing on the chart is the correction factor and smoothing, but that does not matter either because to show two runs on the same graph they have to be showing the same correction factor and smoothing. You can't choose a different correction and smoothing factor for different runs being shown on the same chart.

The charts are posted so the percent change can be seen. The charts are completely valid assuming they haven't been manipulated in some way such as photoshop (which we safely assume because of where the charts came from).

The other fact that you seem to not be able to comprehend is that the gains shown on the charts I've posted are what people all over the world have seen. The gains are right in line with other intake modifications - the stack kits have shown even larger gains than this filter kit. Other people have posted in this thread stating that and there are 10 or more threads on this forum that have dyno charts from all over posted showing the same results.

If there are people reading through these post wondering what to believe my advice would be call dyno-jet and talk to a rep ask them about how to read a graph and what to look for, because if someone tells you to just look at the differences between two lines, again that means nothing without knowing others factors which I was trying to get from desmoworks.

Everything you need to know to properly read the maps posted is on the maps. The only thing that is not that you are hung up on is the correction and smoothing factor, but again - that doesn't matter because it is the same for both runs. If they were two different charts - not two runs on the same chart - then we would need to know correction and smoothing to properly compare.

I just love that you are trying to guide people yet you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. It's completely wrong of you to do.

How about getting a rep from dynojet to come into forum and teach all of us how to read graphs and what's important, then we'll see who's talking crap. They after all are probably the largest manufacturer of dynos and motorcyle tuning software.

I would love for that to happen, but I guarantee no matter what kind of authority told you you were wrong you'd still keep arguing. You're obviously that kind of person and can't just accept the fact that you are wrong and got caught trying to be an keyboard mechanic.

I don't know why you want to keep going with this? You have shown you don't know how to read a chart. You've shown you don't know how to properly tune an engine. You've shown you have VERY poor comprehension skills. You've shown you don't know when to cut your losses and move on. You just keep digging deeper and deeper with every post. You are trying to find new points to argue, but as you do that your arguments are getting weaker and weaker.

Why not just quit posting on the topic and go to a topic you know something about? Going over the same things with you is really getting boring

 

This shit is pretty simple........ you asked the questions, you got good answers with some back up data and you didn't like the answer. Now somehow you think that questioning everyones knowledge and in the case of Anthony his business integrity is going to give you a different answer. Well, here's a news flash, it won't. There have been plenty of people who have done at least 3 different style intake mods and all achieved increased power when properly setup. For each style and setup everyone has seen comparible gains on the dyno and on the street/track. Where is the mystery in that? :think:

A good lot of us have been riding and working on bikes since we were in grade school.............about the same time we learned how to read graphs. I don't think we need any further help to get to the bottom of it all.

Back 'er down son. We appreciate your input and I am sure you will find plenty of information and people to benefit from here.

Out!

 

Anthony,
Hypertrick could not help me as he didn't know anything about the 796.
Never asked about him being operational or not (but it seems like he is as he replied).
You mentioned being able to flash the ECU soon/shortly, got any more info on that, what's it all about?

And sorry Johnnie27 for hijacking your thread

 

Hey thanks cool SWEFIN it has become far more entertaining than i could have hoped for!!(and i am learning to read graphs too) at the end of the day if someone can re-lash your 796 they'll be able to do my 11000SP ..so lets hope it works out for both of us


johnnie

 

Could I asked desmoworks to inform me then what are we looking at in your first two graphs. As I stated before hp and tq must be equal at 5252 rpms this is fact and in first graph this is not the case.
In the second graph again what are we looking at, on left scale is 0 to 125, rpms across bottom and 0-22 across right.
The most common dyno graph will have hp across left side, torque on right, and rpms across bottom. If something else is being displayed then I say again graph is worthless unless person displaying graph can explain it. Again lets ask dynojet rep if hp and tq have to be equal at 5252, lets ask rep can two identical graphs be changed to look completely different by changing rpms to speed or time, lets ask rep if correction factor can change graph, lets ask rep if smoothing can change graph appearance and peak numbers, many factors change graph and desmoworks says nothing matters just look at difference in two lines, this is crazy.
I would also like to ask the all knowing desmoworks why is it that all four of the map files from dynojet for the new PC5 have one table for both front and rear cylinders? Why is it that the autotune they recommend for the hypermotard uses one O2 sensor to be placed in stock sensor location that will measure both cylinders mixed?

 

Could I asked desmoworks to inform me then what are we looking at in your first two graphs. As I stated before hp and tq must be equal at 5252 rpms this is fact and in first graph this is not the case.

The first graph is not in HP/TQ it is in PS/NM which is the metric measurement - the graph was made in Europe so that is standard. This is shown on the legend on the graph shows so I'm not sure why I'm having to explain that to you - you are the one claiming to be an expert graph reader

1HP=1.01PS
1TQ=1.35Nm

If the conversions are not equal then how would any calculations for HP/TQ hold true?

In the second graph again what are we looking at, on left scale is 0 to 125, rpms across bottom and 0-22 across right.

Again, reading comprehension. We've already gone over this. The units of measurement are clearly marked on the chart. They are not the American measurement of HP/TQ. The scale on the right and left is different, but that DOES NOT MATTER. No matter how many times you say it does matter, it does not.

The two power runs are on the same scale and the two torque runs are on the same scale. When you compare runs you are not comparing power of run 1 to torque of run 2 you would compare power of run 1 to power of run 2 and torque of run 1 to torque of run 2.

It's amazing that you can't wrap your mind around the most basic of principals, yet you were pounding your chest as some kind of tuner.

The most common dyno graph will have hp across left side, torque on right, and rpms across bottom. If something else is being displayed then I say again graph is worthless unless person displaying graph can explain it.

That is exactly what is shown on all these graphs, but the measurements are not the American measurements - they are European measurements. Nobody else needed this explained to them

Again lets ask dynojet rep if hp and tq have to be equal at 5252, lets ask rep can two identical graphs be changed to look completely different by changing rpms to speed or time, lets ask rep if correction factor can change graph, lets ask rep if smoothing can change graph appearance and peak numbers, many factors change graph and desmoworks says nothing matters just look at difference in two lines, this is crazy.

You are getting really annoying with this. You are either not understanding what I'm saying or you are purposefully manipulating it so you can keep this badgering going.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again... maybe this time it will sink in, but I HIGHLY doubt it.

Smoothing, correction factor, etc... will only make a difference if you are comparing two separate charts. If you have two runs on one chart both runs will have the EXACT SAME smoothing and correction factor therefor it would be impossible for the gains/losses between the runs to be manipulated using these specifications. It wouldn't matter if smoothing was 1 or 5 because both traces will show the exact same smoothing. What is it that you don't understand about that?

I would also like to ask the all knowing desmoworks why is it that all four of the map files from dynojet for the new PC5 have one table for both front and rear cylinders?

I never claimed to be all knowing - that was you. I simply pointed out that you don't know shit.

You are continuing to show you know absolutely nothing. The PCV CAN BE MAPPED FOR INDIVIDUAL CYLINDERS. Read the product description on their site: http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/PowerCommanderV/powercommander_v.aspx

It says:

- With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).

- Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes

- 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

These features alone prove exactly what I've said and you've denied from the start. A proper map is made with dual cylinder mapping at various throttle positions (PC added another position this year in fact) and at various RPMs using the Eddy-Current load cell. For those who want to get really specific they can do it per gear (as PC points out above they can offer 24 individual fuel tables), but I don't know anyone who does this besides OEM.

Why is it that the autotune they recommend for the hypermotard uses one O2 sensor to be placed in stock sensor location that will measure both cylinders mixed?

Because PC is a VERY basic device that is aimed at the mass market. They want an easy instillation for the end user. They are a marketing company that sells some electronic boxes. Ask anyone who has experience with various products and PC will rank near the bottom of the list.

To do dual cylinder mapping with the PC auto tune setup you have to weld on O2 sensor bungs for the pre-2010 models. 2010+ already have one O2 sensor per cylinder. Their basic install though is a single O2 sensor after the merge collector to make a single map. That is what most end users will do and tuners who want to make a quick map for a street customer. That doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. It is a balance of what the customer wants to spend (dyno time isn't cheap) and what the end goal is. If the end goal is to spend as little as possible and get better power/driveability then there is nothing wrong with a single map for both cylinders. But anyone who is going to spend time making a custom map that will be used over and over again, is for a race bike, is for a bike with real fueling issues, for a bike with lots of modifications, etc... it will be a dual cylinder map for sure.

It is a piggy back devise that is prone to failure. It is a band-aid for fueling issues - not a proper cure. It has a time delay since it changes the signal from the ECU before it gets to the injectors. There are tons of short comings of the PC. The fact that you bring it up as some sort of standard for good tuning is a joke in itself.

Real tuning devises that are cures for the problems, not just band aids are products like the Nemesis ECU, Mircotech, software to reflash the stock ECU, etc... They don't add an additional point of failure to the system and the process in real time - not on a delay. They all allow for dual cylinder mapping as well as many more advanced features that PC can't touch such as being able to set the temperature in which cooling fans come on, adjusting idle maps (PC has another band-aid for that).

 

I wonder how long you can keep asking the same questions in different ways? The answers will not change, just peoples opinion of you. This is all very basic tuning info so you shold already know it all since you are a self-proclaimed "tuner".

Here is a post on this forum from a respected tuner posted just this morning - Mark Sutton from Ducshop.

Lol! Only if it is already close. Usually you cn see a trend in the map so for example while mapping 20% you can pre adjust 40,50, 60% and bothe cylinders while correcting 20% so then there is less work when you get the the higher levels and to the second cylinder. Also with live cells you can see where you are while rolling on. This also saves wear and tear on the bike because you are only doing 20 or 60 passes instead of 80+
I will also go thru the numbers looking for spikes and manually clean them up, especially when auto mapping.

Again confirming that he tunes using the same methods I've described as being standard practice - which you still are denying. Why don't you go hop in that thread and tell Mark how to properly tune a bike

I can provide these examples all day long as well as numerous dyno charts showing similar gains to the graphs already posted in this thread, which you are hell bent on claiming are fake.

What's funny though is that even with all these examples, all this prof, other people telling you to quit typing because you are wrong - you keep going.

I guess nobody can accuse you of being a quitter.

 

vortech, want to buy my PCIII? I didn't know it was such as POS until you made Anthony point it out.

Out!

 

That probably came off as harsh towards PC. PC isn't a bad product - it serves a really good purpose, but just like anything it has its shortcomings. Compared to products like the Nemesis ECU the shortcomings really shine, BUT look at the price difference.

The PC is fine for many applications such as their target audience - street riders, but I personally prefer not using a piggy back devise. We've seen a lot of Power Commanders fail over the last few years we've been dealing with Ducati electronics. We've also had some ECUs with issues, but not as many and they've failed in different ways.

Power Commander is a loved name in the US due to their unbelievably successful marketing efforts so I'll probably catch all kinds of shit for saying anything bad about them. There are a lot of dealers, etc.. heavily invested in the success of PC! So while I have no problem admitting its shortcomings I also have no problem admitting that it for sure has a place in the market and it serves its purpose really well.

I do think Power Commander has been so successful because of marketing, not because the product is the best on the market!