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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 9:02 am   #1 (permalink)
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irREGULAR idle or non octane related coincidence

With the Ike related shortage of fuel in general and near impossibility of locating higher octane fuel here in the mountains of the southeast, is anyone else experiencing stalling issues?
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 9:39 am   #2 (permalink)
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Only ran one tank of regular through mine but not a single issue with it. Premium is showing more around here so you should be good in another week tops.
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 10:03 am   #3 (permalink)
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Seems as if it's time to look into acquiring a vdst of my own then.
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 10:44 am   #4 (permalink)
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The only time I experienced an irregular idle and stalling, I was running 100 octane.Go figure.
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 1:21 pm   #5 (permalink)
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When I run my bike up in the mountains, you can't always get high octane fuel. The few times that I have run regular, I had no performance issues. It could be a combination of the different fuel and weather conditions too. I assume you are getting cooler here in the fall, maybe different humidity too?

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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 2:47 pm   #6 (permalink)
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I've just returned from a three hour ride.

Bike start up was normal and settled into a steady 1300 rpm idle. It reacted the same during several restarts today. It seems to have cured itself somehow.

BTW, still no premium in the mountains. Todays ride was done on "regular" old gasoline.

Wierd!

Another BTW for Axe. Its a little cooler. Leaves are starting to turn and the leaf peepers are out today, not all that much color yet for those that only use our mountain roads for oohing and ahing at dying leaves. I hate winter!
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 3:29 pm   #7 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Octane...

The octane rating of the gasoline should not effect your idle speed in any way... At least not unless the engine is very, very hot or other extenuating circumstances come into play.

Recall that octane rating of today's fuels is a mathematical construct of an empirical set of tests that once determined fuel's ability to resist detonation.

If you want to read a bit about octane numbers and ratings try these pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/octane.html

http://www.sizes.com/units/octane_number.htm

For all intents and purposes you should really run the very LOWEST octane numbered fuel your bike will run on without any symptoms of detonation...

Not only will your bike make more power, but it will also run more efficiently and get better fuel mileage.

Why, you may ask?

Because you will get faster flame front propagation, and hence faster and more complete burning of the fuel in the combustion chamber. Faster burning of the fuel means more expansion in a shorter period of time and higher combustion pressures. More complete burning of the fuel means not just getting all you can out of the fuel and not spitting any unburned fuel out of the exhaust pipe, but fewer emissions as well. You may not believe it, but it's true...

Oddly enough, lower octane fuels should lead to improved idling and smoother running as long as detonation or pre-ignition isn't a factor. You need to experiment a bit with low fuel loads at various ambient temperatures and loads to determine if and when you might experience detonation, but it is certainly worth it, and not just to save money at the pump but also to get the most power to the ground.

I haven't had my Hypermotard long enough to do much experimenting with different fuel octane ratings, but I have run it on mid-grade 89 octane with no detonation or other ill effects. Granted, that was one tank where I was not stretching the throttle cable very hard nor were there heavy loads on the engine. However, I found I could regularly run regular 87 octane gas in my old BMW R-1150-R despite the manufacturer recommending only premium grade fuel. On the other hand my KLR-650 like at least mid-grade 89 octane, as on very hot days with spirited riding regular 87 octane gas will bring on slight detonation at certain throttle openings and high loads.

If you ride like a granny you could probably run regular gas all the time in your Hyper and never notice it. Your benefits would be better mileage and fewer combustion chamber deposits. However, if you ride as though you are trying to qualify for the front row at Phillip Island you might need premium fuel on a regular basis.

One other, perhaps more important, thing to consider is where you buy fuel...

It is really a much better habit to buy fuel from a busy service station - one that has a lot of vehicles going through it each and every day. Why? Because the gas there doesn't stay in the ground very long. The longer fuel stays in the ground the worse it is. The fresher the fuel the better. Fuel station tanks are large vessels and over the years they can gather lots of trash, dirt, and other contaminants that you don't want going through your engine. Granted, the pumps have filters, as does your fuel system, but just how often does that station change its filters? If the in-ground tanks at the station are old enough they have probably gather quite a bit of water, too. Add to all this the fact that the gasoline starts flashing off its lighter volatiles literally from the moment it leaves the refinery and you begin to understand why fresh fuel is best. Again, the longer fuel sits in those in-ground tanks the more of these volatiles have evaporated away.

Anybody want to guess if gasoline's octane number goes up, or down, as it sits in the ground flashing off these volatiles -regardless of what octane rating it had when it was pumped into that underground tank?

Just FYI, and food for thought...

Dallara
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Old Oct 5th, 2008, 11:02 pm   #8 (permalink)
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If I recall, higher octane fuels run richer. So on the Hyper, which is set up to run lean, wouldn't it be better to run the higher octane?

Where is the fuel filter on this bike and how often are you supposed to change it out?

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Old Oct 6th, 2008, 12:29 am   #9 (permalink)
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Post Nope...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AXE View Post
If I recall, higher octane fuels run richer. So on the Hyper, which is set up to run lean, wouldn't it be better to run the higher octane?

Higher octane fuels do not "run richer"... They burn slower.

Sometimes they can have chemical compounds to boost their octane rating that can lessen certain volatiles from flashing off as easily but sometimes these compounds can make negatively effect the fuel's ability to atomize in an airstream. This is not as big a problem for the most part these days with fuel injection system spraying the fuel through injectors at high pressures. At one time it could lead to problems in some carburetors. However these same octane boosting compounds have for the most part been replaced in the gas you see today.

These previous binding and octane boosting compounds also caused injector fouling and combustion chamber deposits which is why products like Techron were developed. These are largely unnecessary now and most gasolines contain Techron-like compounds to keep fuel systems clean.

As far as octane goes, again it's simple...

Lower octane fuels burn faster, and also usually have a lower latent heat of vaporization - while higher octane gasolines burn slower and have a higher latent heat of vaporization as a rule.

An important thing to note is that the lead that used ot be in gasoline was not there to increase the octane. It did help boost the octane number slightly, but it was there to lubricate and cushion valve seats. However, tetraethyl lead was not only a carcinogen but also a terrible pollutant that was very difficult, if not impossible, to burn away in the combustion process. Stories went around that the muscle cars of the '60's, etc. couldn't run on unleaded fuels because of the lower octane rating, and this simply wasn't true. Octane numbers were lowered to get faster and hotter burning for emissions control and the lead had to go to also lessen emissions as well to make the handling of the fuel since tetraethyl lead was, as I said, a contact carcinogen.

It was the older engines need for the lead as a valve seat lubricant and shock absorber that caused trouble with older high performance engines as valve seats could get hammered into heads and the valve's seating surface would get eroded and battered, too, using fuel without lead. That's where lead additives came from.

The point there is never put a lead additive or replacement in your fuel in an attempt to boost octane. It will only clog injectors and ruin your catalytic converter if you run one. It is also hell on the environment.

Hope that helps.

Dallara
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