Tank-Slappers - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum
http://www.ducati.ms/forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
Motorcycle.com Classifieds!Motorcycle.com
Go Back   Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum > General Discussion > Hall of Wisdom

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jan 4th, 2008, 10:44 am   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Shazaam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 1,389
Tank-Slappers

A tank-slapper is a potentially dangerous phenomenon that has been haunting riders and motorcycle designers for decades. It’s called a tank-slapper (or wobble) because the handlebars suddenly seem intent on battering the fuel tank into submission as the front wheel thrashes from side to side like an unruly shopping cart.

If you’ve never seen, or experienced one, look here:

http://www.randtclub.com/Video/cedwa...pper_tt99.mpeg

(The slower less-violent fish-tailing effect that occurs at higher speeds is called weave but it’s actually the same thing as wobble.)

What sets it off initially is an uneven road surface. A bump or series of bumps is enough to do it. Further, if you take the same bump at different speeds, or straight up instead of leaned-over, it changes the likelihood of starting a tank-slapper. So if, and when it starts is really outside of the rider’s control.

So why does this happen on some bikes and not others, and become a problem for one rider but not others on a given bike?

To answer this question we need to look at modern motorcycle designs. In order to achieve quick responsive steering the chassis designers have made the bikes less stabile and consequently more susceptible to tank-slappers. A lot of bikes now come equipped with steering dampers because of this.

In particular the sport-bikes now have a more upright angle to the steering head and forks as well as a reduced trail dimension.



An outside influence is needed to spark these phenomena.

A central issue in chassis design is stability. A motorcycle is designed to return its front wheel to a straight-ahead condition after hitting an object or bump in the road that causes the front wheel to deflect slightly to the right or left. In other words, it has to remain stable for a variety of road conditions, and motorcycle stability is foremost a safety issue.

The way dynamic stability is assured is to design a bike with enough distance between the point where the front wheel touches the road and the intersection point between the steering axis and the road. This is called the trail dimension.

A longer trail dimension increases the motorcycle's stability on straights, but will also negatively affect the motorcycle's turning effort, i.e. more rider's strength is required in corners and transitions. However, the more trail, the greater the ability of the bike to self-correct it's steering. It's a longer trail dimension, for example, that allows you to easily ride with no hands on some bicycles, but not others.

A shorter trail dimension, on the other hand, produces a lower opposing force to steering inputs. It's kind of like power steering. So the steering requires less rider strength, but larger handlebar displacements from bumps in the road and corners are fed back to the rider. Said another way, the shorter the trail, the more rider input that is needed to hold a line and the more responsive the bike feels since it is more sensitive to steering inputs.

For example, the two superbike steering angle positions, 23°30' and 24°30' produce trail dimensions of 91mm and 97mm respectively. The wheelbase, also an important factor in stability, remains unaffected when you change it. As a comparison, the Monster steering angle is fixed at 24° and the trail dimension is 94mm. Adjusting the trail dimension on most manufacturer's bikes is not an option.

Note Ducati's warning: "Trail should only be altered after all the other (geometry and suspension) changes have been made and you are comfortable on the bike. If the bike displays any instability problems they need to be sorted out first, as this steering head angle change will magnify these characteristics."

(One reason, for example, is that part of its effect mimics changing the rear ride height.)

The Haynes Service manual goes on to say "Warning: The steering head angle must be set to the road position (longer trail) whenever the bike is used on the road. If the steering angle is set to the race position (shorter trail) ... the handling of the machine could become unpredictable on uneven road surfaces."

So, shortening the trail is considered unwise for street riding (unlike tracks) where bumps in corners, potholes and other road hazards repeatedly challenge your bikes steering stability. Here's a case where inexperienced or uninformed riders who set-up their street bike chassis geometry as race-bikes are just looking for trouble.

Trying to mimic factory race bike set-ups can get you into trouble. It's central to racing that race bikes often need to sacrifice high-speed stability to handling. Riders may initially run the steeper steering head angle, but often, as they get faster, they realize they want more stability, not less.

To get more stability there are two things that Ducati typically changes on their race-bikes: the triple clamps and the swingarm. They use triple clamps with less offset, typically 27mm instead of the stock 36mm, and use a 25mm longer swingarm to increase the wheelbase. These changes to the triple clamps or the swingarm have the effect of moving the center of gravity forward which is the typical starting geometry of the Corsa race bikes. Remember, changing the steering head angle does not, by itself, change the wheelbase or alter the center of gravity.

Engineers have experimented with ways to reduce the extent of the problem. For example, they have found that heavier riders are less susceptible to the problem than lighter ones. They know that the amount of weight on the front wheel is important and that tank-slappers often occur when exiting corners under power when weight transfer off the front wheel occurs.

A common solution is to add a steering damper to kill the rapid oscillation. Unfortunately, while increasing the steering damping reduces the risk of wobble, it increases the chance of weave.

So, what should a rider do if it begins?

First, you need to increase the forces on the tire that are trying to return the front wheel to the straight ahead position. If you’re accelerating get off the gas to allow the bike’s weight to push down on the front wheel to let the trail dimension do it’s job. Also, shift your weight forward on the bike to help as well. The reason sport-bikes have clip-ons is to get more of the rider’s weight forward.

Second, hold on but don’t push on the handle bars. Pushing hard just feeds more energy into the tank-slapper. Steer gently until the steering settles down.

If it happens on a regular basis check for excessive play in the the steering head bearings and add or adjust your steering damper. Change your steering head angle back to the street setting.

The stock steering damper is often not adjustable but provides a fair amount of damping that is suitable for most road and track applications.

Supplied on some models, the Ohlins steering damper adjustment knob has 16 different damping positions. The recommended setting is the midpoint 6-8 clicks from full soft. Full hard is 18 clicks clockwise from full soft.

Track surfaces are smoother than typical roads, so less damping is needed. The steeper steering head angle is less stable (less self-correcting) so more damping should be considered.

As you increase steering damping you gain increased control over steering oscillations that are set up by uneven road surfaces and even side wind gusts. As the side-to-side speed of the steering increases, so does the damping effect. This results in a smooth easy-handling ride at low speeds combined with heavier dampening during extreme situations The trade-off between handling feel and steering stability is a personal choice.

By its very nature a steering damper will spoil your bike’s steering a little. It’s main value is to provide protection against tank-slappers.
__________________


I receive no financial benefit from the sale of any Ducati-related product or service.
Shazaam is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old Jan 4th, 2008, 4:54 pm   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
blade625CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Stamford, CT, USA
Posts: 709
A very good read, as always. Thanks Shazaam. I look forward to all your posts.
__________________
I race because other sports only require one ball
blade625CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 25th, 2008, 11:20 pm   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Purspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posts: 959
Images: 1
Great post. Thanks Shazaam.
__________________



"This is my Ducati. There are many like it, but this one is mine..." ~ Purspeed (ca. 2008)
Purspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 9:25 pm   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Santa Monica & Indianapolis, CA & IN, USA
Posts: 159
Weaves and Wobbles

Motorcycle geometry design is constantly evolving. Generally most of what shazaam has stated is true. However it is by no means the holy grail of how to deal with a unstable condition. Years ago as a test ride for a major Japanese M-C company I had the pleasure of riding and testing both prototypes of ours against existing models of the competition. One test session I participated in was at JARI which stands for Japanese Automobile Research Institute. This was a 3 1/2 mile oval consisting of four lanes. The inner lane being completely flat and the other three lanes increasing in bank through the the turns up to a 45 degree angle at the upper most lane 90 degrees through the turn. Talk about a blast. We were testing a variety of bikes but I want to touch on the big bores. This was 1982 and the GPZ1100 was one of the test machines. Accelerating down the over 1 mile long straightaway produced a weave that was disconcerting to say the least. We were unable to exceed 140 MPH whereas we could go into the redline with ours at over 165 MPH with similar front end geometry. Conventional wisdom said to get more weight on the front end. As that seemed to help on most other models tested including our own. All that did was to exacerbate the weave. The only way to regain stability was to slide rearward on the bike. It worked. We didn't bother to do the math or anything but the point I was getting at was that in a panic situation making small and smooth variations to the equation is a way to learn what works and once under control and safely stopped can you apply your experience to the math. We also had deceleration wobbles on a variety of touring bikes that were cured by attaching extra weight to the rear of the front fender. Go figure. I'm not an engineer but a seat of the pants rider that can tell when something is working or not.
__________________
_________________________________________________
'07 S4RS Pearl W/Red, Full DP Termi kit, 14/42 520 ERV3 w/AFAM Quick change carrier,Moto Wheels axle & wheel nuts, MBP Collets W/Degree'd Cams, Tail chop W/ Shortened Termi Cans, Barnett Basket W/Silent clutch mod, 2/3 Carbon Cover, Arrow Titanium damper,STM Frame plugs,PCIII
And of Course...More to come!
Tooljunkie911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 31st, 2008, 8:33 pm   #5 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
sochuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: South Charleston, Ohio, USA
Posts: 4
Interesting read, but I was under the impression that backing off the go fast side of the handlebars during a tankslapper will on increase the violent movement of the chasis of the bikes and would lead to a mess in your leathers. I have been on the bad end of a slapper and discovered that rolling on the throttle, moving the weight of the back over the rear axle slowed the oscilation (sp) of the clip ons thus allowing me to regain some measure of control.


Mic
sochuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 31st, 2008, 11:17 pm   #6 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The lovely Van Nuys, California, USA
Posts: 11,283
Images: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sochuck View Post
I have been on the bad end of a slapper and discovered that rolling on the throttle, moving the weight of the back over the rear axle slowed the oscilation (sp) of the clip ons thus allowing me to regain some measure of control.
Thats exactly what I've done to assist as well. In theory, on paper, in science class, you wanna have more weight on the front.
tye1138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 7th, 2008, 11:18 am   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
jayman4911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cape Coral, FL, usa
Posts: 23
I saw a Harley rider get out of a hard tank slapper yesterday... first time I saw that
jayman4911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 10th, 2008, 1:03 am   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
redpato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lancaster, CA, USA
Posts: 1,811
In aviation they say an unstable airplane makes a very manuverable fighter. Similar theory with sport bikes. Drag bikes have the front end way out there to help stability. A couple of years ago at the All Harley Drags in Vegas I saw a guy get into a high speed wobble (tank slapper) mid way down the track. He tried to control it with just brute force. It broke both his forearms.


"in God we trust"
__________________
"in God we trust"

1996 900 SS/SP #C25
redpato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 24th, 2008, 5:16 pm   #9 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
theWanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Posts: 22
Thanks so much Shazaam!!
theWanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 15th, 2008, 7:56 pm   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
BrianG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 1,043
Since a tank-slapper seems to be the unfortunate convergence of a number of factors, I suspect that substantially altering any one of them, up or down, might terminate the cyclic event. Perhaps this is why you will hear so many adherents to either school of thought.
My own 80 mph tank-slapper was terminated by a panicked grab of front brake that actually smoked the tire. Stopped the event immediately. Didn't help with the mess in the leathers....
BrianG is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Repairing a leaking SS tank Rainman Supersport 58 May 10th, 2012 5:46 am
Repairing leaky rusted steel tanks Rainman Hall of Wisdom 14 Jan 6th, 2011 11:31 pm
749/999: Removing/Swapping/Inspecting Fuel Tank & Pump migz123 Hall of Wisdom 22 Dec 20th, 2010 10:17 pm
1999 900ss gas tank hose locations? marshall Supersport 3 Feb 24th, 2006 9:13 am

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:04 am.



Ducati.ms Web Community is powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Ducati Forum Harley Davidson Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6
1199 Panigale Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1
Ducati Monster Harley Forums Honda CBR250R ZX10R Forum Star Raider
Suzuki GSXR V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Kawasaki Motorcycles Star Warrior
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Honda Fury Kawasaki Versys Drag Racing
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Triumph 675 MV Agusta Forum Streetfighters