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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 9:31 am   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkwright View Post
The socket head screw is a clamp. Both the head and the threads are holding the assembly together. Securing either end to the housing will help prevent the screw from backing out. Loctite and other thread locking compounds are fine for steel screws into steel, and also I assume aluminum screws into aluminum. For dissimilar materials, like steel screws into aluminum, then anti-seize must be used. So, if anti-seize must be used, then locktite cannot also be used. Some other form of bolt securing must be used.
Technically, you are incorrect. 99% of the holding strength is held in the bolts threads. The nut on top is only to keep shit from slipping off. (A bit like why God put a head on a penis. Not to keep it tight, but to keep your hand from flying off...) A bolt can be tightened down and the head secured but it does not mean the shaft of the bolt is free from moving. Movement of the clamped item or the case can cause the shaft of the bolt to move and potentially come loose. So no, you are incorrect. Clamping a bolt head down with a spring washer can still cause it to come loose. Thread locking compound stops the threads from being rotated. The threads are what makes a bolt tight and hold down, NOT the head. Locking of just the head of the bolt can cause the head of the bolt to break off. Shaft moves and flexes and head does not. Fatigue fracture.

Lock wiring is used to minimize the possibility of a bolt coming adrift and flying off into space, not to lock it into place. They are often bound in pairs and in such a way if one comes loose, it will tighten its partner bolt. It is NOT a way to stop bolts from becoming loose.

Galling happens when the steel grows into the alloy via oxidization. This can be cured in many ways. Anti-seize for one, grease is good, or by the use of a thread locker, ie: loctite. This keeps water out and stops the bolt from rusting into the alloy casing. Most thread locking compounds are designed for one reason in mind. To lock threads. The use of anti-seize is used for bolts that may require frequent removal. The use of anything that lubricates the threads must also be considered when using torque specification, as the lube affect the friction contact in the thread.

You are right though, you cant use loctite and an anti-seize at the same time. Loctite is designed to seize parts. Anti-seize is used, strangely enough, to stop then seizing. So saying you cant use both at the same time is just a little odd as both have opposite functions. But!!! at the end of the day, you dont need anti-seize if you use thread lock, because the thread lock will prevent galling as well! It's like two substances in one! And did i mention that loctite acts as a lubricant while you refit the bolt ? WOW!! A truly amazing 101 uses product!

All in all, you are wrong. Loctite is fine for use on steel threads going into alloy blind holes. Its fine for (and why you would ever use these bolts is beyond me) alloy bolts into alloy holes, or even steel holes. Hell, i would use loctite on titanium bolts into plastic holes, or plastic bolts into alloy.

I base my experience on over 20 years of mechanical disassembly on things from toys to gigantic earth moving equipment, a diploma in mechanical engineering and a diploma in non-destructive testing not to mention countless courses i have attended over the years and lectures on things like loctite, spring washers and various locking methods. My family own an engineering company that fabricates everything they can get into. They also stock nuts and bolts and loctite in the big bottles. I have probably removed and replaced more bolts from things then most people would see in 10 life times...

But hey, what would i know ?
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Last edited by pegaxs; Oct 13th, 2009 at 9:41 am.
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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 10:46 am   #12 (permalink)
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Technically, you are incorrect. 99% of the holding strength is held in the bolts threads. The nut on top is only to keep shit from slipping off. (A bit like why God put a head on a penis. Not to keep it tight, but to keep your hand from flying off...) A bolt can be tightened down and the head secured but it does not mean the shaft of the bolt is free from moving. Movement of the clamped item or the case can cause the shaft of the bolt to move and potentially come loose. So no, you are incorrect.
It's the tension in the screw or bolt shaft that keeps the joint from coming apart. The tension creates friction in the threads and at the head which is the basis for the assembly staying together in the first place. Holding either the head or the threads in place, or both, will keep the assembly together. You're apparently unfamiliar with the Schnorr ribbed safety washers.

I am an ME also, so I'm not impressed by your credentials. Throwing credentials around to try to convince me that you're correct isn't going to work.

Using locktite or other locking compound in soft aluminum threaded holes is not a good idea, but do what you want. I know enough that anti-seize is required with aluminum threaded holes and steel screws.

Where do you think the idea for flanged serrated nuts came from?

They also make bolts and screws with this kind of serrated flange.

Last edited by dirkwrong; Oct 13th, 2009 at 10:58 am.
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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 1:11 pm   #13 (permalink)
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I can see this turning into a penis comparison thread instead of what it was originally intended for.

The friction from the base of the head of a bolt make up about 5% of the bolts ability to stay torqued up. Hence the reason that lock washers are "ok" but they only lock onto 5% of the bolts total lockable area. Lock washers are awesome. But they are limited. Lets compare...

Bolt A has a lock washer and bolt B is covered in thread locker. How much of a turn does it require to break A's hold on its grip and B's hold. Lets assume both bolts are equal length, equal grade and screwed into the same material the same depth to the same torque. "A" would require maybe less then one turn, "B" would require almost the whole length of thread. A's grip has gouged the case where the lock bit into it and B, due to its nature, comes out with no damage.

Loctite does not damage threads. Even if you use it to hold a 12.9 grade high tensile bolt into wafer biscuits. Loctite on its own would not strip a thread out. OMG!!! Loctite even have a solution for that, its called "Loctite Form-A-Thread" Hmmm... use that on an alloy case and a steel bolt... it might strip itself out ???

I threw my credentials around because 98% of people on forums are just regugitating bullshit they hear from other ill-informed forum users. Then it gets passed on from moron to moron as fact. "This guy told me, right, that if you do this, right...." I added mine to let people know i speak from experience, not 4th hand information. I dont care if it's impressive to you or not. It still does not make you right either. At the end of the day, my opinion is based on over 20 years of fact and field testing. At this point, i would say that my penis is more right then your penis. Although, your penis is not entirly without merit. Yes, lock washers are good, no they are not as good as loctite and never will be. Period (or permatex. Just dont use pematex gasket goop. Stinks like shit and never seals!)

Unfortunatly, opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one. Thanks for sharing yours.

Call your local loctite distributor and ask them what you should use on a M6x20 mild steel bolt to lock it into an alloy casting. Chances are you're wrong. They wont say "oh my... dont use loctite, you wanna use serrated flange bolts for that... the loctite will eat the alloy and will take the thread with it after you remove it in 12 years..."

Hold on... Last time i pulled my engine apart... ALL the engine case bolts came out with no washers on them... but the threads were covered in what appeared to be thread locker. Wow. Ducati could be up for a massive litigation case if people start removing these bolts and yanking the threads out with them. Shouldnt be using thread locker on those cheese bolts into that alloy case should they ? They use soft aluminium in Ducati engine cases. Thats shit! I bet Yamaha dont use shit aluminium or any of that nasty thread locker...

Have you ever used loctite ? Do you even know how it works ? Do you know whats in it ? Do you understand how to use it and when to use it ? Did you even read my section about galling ? Did you even realise that thread locker by nature stops galling ? Did you read that anti-seize changes torque specs on bolts ? Hell, i would use loctite to secure my cheese to my bread.

The original post was, will Threebond work as a thread locker. I said no. A better alternative is Loctite blue 242. He wasnt asking about removing all the bolts and drilling them out for lock wires. He wasnt asking about what brand is the best brand of lock washers. (al be it, your lock washer conspiricy is 95% incorrect.)

I suppose next you are going to tell me cork rocker cover gaskets are better then nitrile, thread tape is better then loctite thread sealant and push rod V8's will always be better then multivalve double over head cam engines...

And last of all... paper gaskets are better then Threebond 1215

And here are some gratuitous photos and links for my thread for no other reason then because Dirk seems to think they add weight to it!...

Engineering forum talk about lock washers and how loctite is better and lock washers should be binned
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=114051&page=1

Video from Nord-Lock. The ONLY locking washer i would use if i was going to use one, which i wouldnt in the first place. They even show schnorr washers in this and say they are shit and why. They dont test loctite, cause they know it works. They even say the Nord-locks have a limitations. (all be in trying to clamp down on diamond like hard surfaces. Oh and serrated nuts/bolts are a joke as well...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmuZuJ02I

Some Loctite thread locking bottles...


And here is one using both loctite AND washers... (cause lock washers are shit!)
PS: These are Porsche front brake caliper mounting bolts... no lock washers there...


And a castle nut, cause noone has spoken about their effective use yet...
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Last edited by pegaxs; Oct 13th, 2009 at 2:47 pm. Reason: cleaning off my excess thread locker :)
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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 3:19 pm   #14 (permalink)
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wow -

no one is to complain about my cranky responses anymore.
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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 3:34 pm   #15 (permalink)
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Should have done what everyone else did in the superbike forum when he started spruiking about Schnorr washers. Ignored him and got on with the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkwright View Post
I have good luck using Schnorr ribbed spring washers under the head of the bolts. blah blah blah blah...
I don't like locktite because it cruds up the threads and can lead to galling if you use the wrong type.
Loctite inhibits galling. It does not LEAD to galling. Moisture leads to galling. It doesnt even crud up the threads. If it does, the moron installing the bolts is using to much! The wrong type that would cause galling would be Liquid Steel. And thats not a thread locker. It's a metal replacement. Its good for filling threads and redrilling and tapping.

Where can you buy Schnorr washers, where can you buy Nord-locks ? Now compare that to where you can buy Loctite that is far superior in everyway. Auto shops, K-Mart and supermarkets, service stations and yes... even at bolt supliers!

And on a side note, how funny is Dirks comments if you replace "spring washers" with "condoms" and replace "bolt" with "penis"... NOW the sentance makes sense
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Old Oct 13th, 2009, 8:22 pm   #16 (permalink)
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Moisture leads to galling.
I thought galling was a transfer of metal to another metal due to friction and/or chafing without lubrication, especially when close tolerances are involved.

Didn't think it had anything to do with oxidation or that water would make it worse.
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Old Oct 14th, 2009, 2:33 am   #17 (permalink)
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Galling is usually caused when the two metals become fused. One way is through excessive friction. ie: rotating shaft with no lubrication. Eventually the heat from the friction gets to it and they weld together. With enough friction, you can weld anything together. You could weld titanium to steel using friction.

Another cause of galling is when one part of the join corrodes and bonds to the other. This is most likely in the bolt applications we are talking about. As i know some of you spanner spinners are good, but unless your using a rattle gun to remove bolts, there is no way it would gall from high speed friction using a ratchet... Galling usually happens to bolts after an ingress of moisture. (re: Jaguar inline 6 head studs from 20+ years ago. Only the poms would run metal head studs through a water jacket.) Eventually the oxidisation of the steel causes the bolt to expand in size. No problem if it never has to be removed, but a big problem when it does. The oxidised metal can also grow into the alloy, as aluminum is porous to some degree. When you go to remove the bolt, it will gall on the way out because the bolt is now larger in size due to the rust, and it effectively has welded itself into the hole.

This is where Dirk is wrong. Loctite takes up the space in the threads and expels the moisture. As it dries out under anaerobic conditions, it also absorbs any moisture and dries it out in the process. What you have left is the "crud" he doesnt like. This "crud" forms a lock and causes the friction necessary to stop the bolt from turning on its own. Pseudo rust if you will...

When you remove a loctite applied bolt, it wont gall. The "crud" that is left just simple breaks away as you are removing the bolt. Because there has been and still is a barrier of "crud" between the bolt and its housing, this is what is preventing it from galling. Even when you use red loctite, it may feel like galling, but its basically the difference in using paper glue and using a 2 part epoxy glue. One is just alot stronger. Bit of heat on the red stuff and whammo! out it comes.

Anti-seize on the other hand has a totally separate use to loctite. It is designed to make disassembly easier in the future and is not recommended for high vibration applications. Sure, it prevents galling, because it offers a layer of lubrication, but like loctite, it takes up the space that the moisture usually would have. If you need to constantly pull it apart, use Nord-lock washers (not Schnorr, but Dirk would know that being an engineer.) and anti-seize. If you want it to go in and stay in and not vibrate loose and you dont see any time in the future having to pull it apart, use Loctite.

And just a side note. There is no problem using steel bolts in alloy housings. Aluminum is a what is known as a self lubricating metal. Much like copper, brass, bronze, nickel, gold, silver, cobalt (which im note sure is a metal anyway!) and a few others i cant be bothered googling. The problem from galling exists when the steel involved gets oxidised. Yes anti-seize will help out with that, but it's not the be all to end all. You DONT have to use anti-seize with every steel to alloy combination.

Anyway. A photo for the sake that it proves my point! Cause a photo always proves a point... no lock washer on this baby and OMG!!! not the RED loctite! That is sure to gall!!
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Old Oct 14th, 2009, 8:41 am   #18 (permalink)
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Loctite inhibits galling. It does not LEAD to galling. Moisture leads to galling. It doesnt even crud up the threads. If it does, the moron installing the bolts is using to much! The wrong type that would cause galling would be Liquid Steel. And thats not a thread locker. It's a metal replacement. Its good for filling threads and redrilling and tapping.
You're a Loctite salesman, and your name calling and taunts are childish. You're not interested in sharing information, only making fun of me and selling your products.

Moisture does NOT lead to galling. Galling is caused by friction in the threads and is eliminated by using some kind of lubricant while the parts are threaded together. Loctite in it's liquid state appears to prevent galling during assembly, but does not during disassembly. The product guides on the Loctite website do not go into any detail about their thread locking products anti-galling features. There is also no information about how well the cured thread locking products resist moisture.

Stainless steel fasteners are particularly prone to galling, from what I have read, and stainless steel fasteners threading into aluminum is also highly susceptible to galling. Moisture leads to galvanic corrosion, which damages threads also, of course. Here again, anti-seize (a mixture of grease and finely divided metal, at least) prevents moisture intrusion and prevents galling. Cured loctite may also be water resistant, I don't really know and the website does not go into detail about that.

Schnorr safety washers have been in production for decades. I have no relationship with them other than being a happy user. The Nord-lock washers look very good too, but do not appear to be springs. They do not provide any extra resilience in the joint.

Last edited by dirkwrong; Oct 14th, 2009 at 8:56 am.
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Old Oct 14th, 2009, 12:29 pm   #19 (permalink)
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You're a Loctite salesman, and your name calling and taunts are childish. You're not interested in sharing information, only making fun of me and selling your products.
Incorrect. I work for a Casino. I can assure you, i have not now and not ever had any affiliation with Loctite nor Permatex. I use both of their products because they work. Plain and simple. I got a feeling you give Schnorr a pretty good flaunting on these pages. Perhaps you work for them ? I use Loctite as a generic term for thread locking compounds because a: they make the best and b: about 99% of people are aware of them. (and c: not many other companies make thread lockers.)

As for being childish, i was not the one who said... "errr. im not impressed by your extensive industry experience."

I am most defiantly interested in sharing my information, but i am disappointed with your dis-information. Why do you think i go into it at length ? provide links, videos and dispense with my own worldly information. If i wasnt interested, why would i put so much effort into providing this much information ? I have tried to go into at length about why loctite does what it does. All you say is "no it doesnt..." and with no back up and with no proof or with "I think it...". I dont care what you think. I care about what you know! Put your balls on the table and prove to me and everyone else that a: lock washers are better then thread locking compounds and b: that thread locking compounds are the cause of galling between any metals.

Lock washers are not, have not and never will be capable of doing what loc... err.. i meant "thread locking compounds" can do. Respect goes out to Nord-Lock though!! They are as close as a washer can get to being lockable. Only draw back is they cant be fitted over a normal washer. Not that this is a real drawback, as only a moron would install a flat washer AND a locking washer.

Quote:
Moisture does NOT lead to galling. Galling is caused by friction in the threads and is eliminated by using some kind of lubricant while the parts are threaded together. Loctite in it's liquid state appears to prevent galling during assembly, but does not during disassembly. {BZZT... wrong!} The product guides on the Loctite website do not go into any detail about their thread locking products anti-galling features. {They also dont go into its galling features though either. Possibly because it doesnt ?}
How is friction caused ? Could friction be caused by say... a rusted bolt in a hole, growing in size ? Perhaps welding itself to the other material ? perhaps ? Then you go on to say something about stainless fasteners. Stainless will gall in stainless... but according to you it wont, because they are the same metal. Do you even know why stainless and aluminum gall ? Could it be perhaps due to... oxidisation ? The stainless bolt scrapes away at the alloy and caused the alloy to re-oxidise, thus jamming the threads ? hmmm... On steel bolts, what could cause this oxidisation ? moisture perhaps ? It is not the sole reason for galling. But it certainly IS one of the possible causes... (possibly the main cause of steel bolts galling in aluminum threads because of this is perhaps coincidence ? Shit in the thread, damaged threads and using a air ratchet/rattle gun to remove at high speed can also cause it. But anyway...)

Quote:
There is also no information about how well the cured thread locking products resist moisture. Cured loctite may also be water resistant, I don't really know and the website does not go into detail about that.
But the MSDS does. Being an engineer, you would know about MSDS's yeah ?
http://henkelconsumerinfo.com/produc...229&VKORG=3450

Or how about the TDS ?
https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNA...ile/242-EN.pdf

Christ, how much more info do you require... It even comes with easy to read graphs.

{side note, this is only one product offered by loctite as an example.}

Quote:
The Nord-lock washers look very good too, but do not appear to be springs. They do not provide any extra resilience in the joint.
HUH! ?? Did you watch the Nord-Lock video ? All of it ? Did you have the sound turned on ? Wow. They even demo the nord-lock washer being loosened and show it on the torque meter slightly increasing in torque as it is wound off. My word it has a "spring action" in the form of ramps. If it tries to come loose, it actually pulls the bolt tighter by forcing the two 1/2's of the washer to push apart. Schnorrs dont. As Schnorrs back out, they just unflex/unspring. SO... as they are being wound off, they are losing tension. They are at their highest tension when they are flat. anything less then flat, they loose spring tension...

Here are some great links. I am sure you will change from Schnorr to Nord-Lock next time you shop...
http://www.nord-lock.com/default.asp?url=328.16.37
http://www.nord-lock.com/default.asp?url=7.16.37

And a diagram. Because i love pictures in my posts...


At the end of the day, this thread was not about what is better. It was about a replacement for a liquid thread locker. I am right in stating that 242 is a suitable replacement. 243 would probably have been a better judgment call considering oil is probably going to be present.

You on the other hand have been wrong about what the original question was. There was no question about Schnorr washers or lock washers as a replacement for Threebond 1215. You are wrong about Loctite and any other maker of thread locking compounds on the market, what they are capable of and their uses and functions. You are even wrong about your pet love of locking washers. Last of all, you were wrong about me. (Apart from the arsehole comment you murmer about me away from the keyboard. Yes, i am that.) I dont work for Loctite. I dont even work where i have any influence on what we buy. I dont sell anything.

What i am is i am passionate about the correct information being given out. About giving people an informed opinion based on fact and experience. Not hear say and guesswork. I agree, lock washers have their place. But what you consider correct usage is not correct. What you consider as good practice is not. What you consider a good product is at best mediocre with very very very limited applications.

Man!! you cant do THAT with locking washers... Is there anything you CANT do with Loctite ?


I wasnt satisfied with all of this, and it has been plaguing me for a few hours, so i decided to get on the dreaded Google and hunt down some things about galling. What i did find was a few very interesting websites. One i never really count on as being reliable, but never the less, appears to be quite good in this instance, Wikipedia. (*shudder*)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

I think the quote on this page that sums it up best is....

Quote:
What prevents galling

Galling is prevented by the presence of grease or surface coatings, even if the surface coatings increase friction. It usually does not occur when joining dissimilar materials (e.g., threading 18-8 stainless steel into 17-4 stainless steel) even though both of those materials are susceptible to galling.
Usually does not happen when joining dissimilar materials huh.... Or even a surface coating that increases friction... interesting...

A link about stainless galling...
http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html

And finally a final word on moisture causing galling... I knew it was out there somewhere, it just took time to find it. I couldnt remember the word from learning about it nearly 15 years ago... here goes.

galvanic corrosion... (Google it, i cant be bothered) This is what can happen when 2 dis-similar metals are bought into contact with something that makes one of them oxodise. ie: the steel rusts and cold welds itself to the alloy OR the alloy reacts with the oxidising agent and caused it to cold weld itself to the bolt. The oxide from either material forms a type of dry solder. When you go to remove it, it causes friction, and thus in turn rips the crappola out of your $2000 engine cases. Another classic example is brake bleeder nipples. Wish i had a dollar for every one of them i have removed that was seized into the caliper or cylinder.

Quote:
Moisture does NOT lead to galling.
And i bet you're still not convinced because it would kill you to admit that maybe i do have a point and maybe im not wrong after all
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