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1198 engine into 1098.

12K views 30 replies 5 participants last post by  Kimbo 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello everyone,

I've purchased a 1198 engine that I intend to put into my 1098 bike.

Now, I think I know what needs to be done, but better to ask and be safe than sorry right? :)

Throttle bodies? I need to get a hold of a pair for the 1198 since the diameter is larger. Is it sufficient with just the bodies or do I also need the airbox? (ie. do the airbox differ from 1098/1198)

Exhaust wise? As I've got the termignoni full exhaust system I would like to keep it, but the exhaust ports are larger. Can I purchase just the manifold/flanges for the exhaust ports and hook it up to rest? If so, anyone knows where I can order these parts?

ECU? I need to reflash it with a rom from a 1198 (non S, and load it with a termi full system map). Already got JPDiag/Guzzidiag working. Got roms and xdfs.

Harness? Nothing needed here?

Thanks! :nerd:
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Starter relay wont activate if you use a 1198 ecu program with 1098 harness as the 1198 harness differs in what ecu pin the starter button goes to, so either use a 1198 harness or use a 1098 ecu file for base and alter the maps to fit the 1198 engine. Another possible route is to make the starter like on the 916 -> constant positive to starter relay and then let the button ground to activate the relay.
 
#7 ·
Hmm... ok. Yea well that would be a last resort kinda solution. I rather not since I still got my 1098 motor laying around as well and might do something with it in the future.

Regarding Power Commander that should not be neccesary at all since we can reflash the ECU with proper maps.

Thanks! :smile2:
 
#9 ·
If you dont find the proper 1198 headers and dont mind some fabrication get a set of 1198 oem headers and merge with the 1098 full. To my knowledge you just need to upsize the 1198 headers a bit to fit the 70full. Im using 1198 oem headers on my pup and its not restricting power at all, range below 6500 is better too. Just thinking out loud here. Cheap but requires a bit of work yes.
 
#10 ·
Yea I figured that was the route to go if all else fails.

I found the Ducati catalogue number for just the headers. (from 1098R and 1198R Corse, seems to be the same).

961.1.980.8B Vertical head fitting
961.1.970.8B Horizontal head fitting

Sent an email to my local Ducati shop for quotation.

Tack! :grin2:
 
#13 · (Edited)
I changed crank cases on my 1098 last winter and noticed after a bit of riding that the vertical cylinder is scratched and leaking oil. Dunno for sure yet why but I cut short on replacing main bearings etc. Long story short...

Dont know what it will cost to repair it and found resonable priced 1198 engine for sale.

Gonna split the 1098 again and take a look.. but I figured it needs atleast new bearings and refurbished or replaced vertical cylinder and maybe pistons/rings. :crying:
 
#18 ·
Im banging my head against the wall here a bit. Those coke googles must have some magic properties. :grin2:

I think Im close but still... and how can I verify that I actually have the correct table? I mean there seems to be data before and after that could be correct as well?

I had to change bit resolution and multiplication on fuel timing for the 1098 to not get garbled values.

How can it differ so much between those 2 ECU's in how the data is stored and at what adresses etc?
 

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#20 ·
Saying its easy to travel through any ecu file would be lying, at least to me.
As with most things, if you do it a hundred times pattern starts arising, as our brains are pretty good at seeing patterns.
Luckily for me Ive done it so many times Im close to hallucinating looking at them, plus I get the chance to try the theories out in the dyno right away. Stuff is at where ever the programmer feels convenient.

5AM is the easy one, try monster 1100 where its all mixed up with big endian, small endian, 8-bit, 16-bit and even odd starting, thatll give you a headache :)
 
#22 ·
Hahah that sounds like a true nightmare. Not saying it's easy by any means... Im still banging my head to the wall but that's a part of the learning process which makes the reward in the end so much sweeter. :grin2:

From my best guesses the ingition timing map looks about right however the fuel timing was a bit off... this looks more proper? I interp it as millisec for injectors to inject the fuel needed.

Have you ever flashed a 1098 ECU to be used with a 1198 before Tom? I mean by using this method Im doing now by "trying" to identify the parts of the bin and where they are located that's needed. Or have you used finished 3rd party solutions to map the ECU directly when running the bike in the bench then diffíng the bin files? I know there are some other tools available... but I don't know if they take everything between 1098 -> 1198 into account???

Your answer before was a bit vague... Im still not 100% sure on which parts I need to transfer from the 1198 ecu.

Main Fuel Map
Delta Fuel Map
Main Ignition
Delta Ignition
Fuel Timing
Ignition Timing

Is this correct?

Im really a total newbie when it comes to this...

How safe is it to reflash my ECU when I alter my own defined maps? I mean as long as they don't look super garbled that is... Is it sensitive on the byte or am I fine if I miss it by a small offset?

Thanks again Tom and have a nice weekend :nerd:
 

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#21 · (Edited)
You need to look in the definition files and see what conversion they have, should be actual by ten, thinking you are in the correct place in both.
Way too much ignition advance on the second to make good top end, imo.
For 1198 you dont want anything higher than 38.

Some tuners claim you can gain a lot beyond tq peak by adding ignition, never seen that myself.
I cant get the theory either as you need to present the mid of the flame front at the perfect angle to acheive max torque at any rev, which equals power.
 
#23 ·
I always find the stuff on my own, with similar bikes I always try the maps by putting on a massive amount and see it reacts in the dyno, to see Im right. Put bike on the dyno, put measuring stuff on, warm up, try really wild stuff to see bike responds bad to your attempts.
How I start a mapping day generally, by this time coffe is due and I spent 1,5 hour.
 
#26 ·
I think I finally got it correct? I had some issues with the XDF I used for comparesion until i realised it was wrong and wasnt needed at all.

How about RPM Limiter. Looking at the 1198 it seems to stop at 10620? Mine allows for 10700. Is it safe to keep it there or should I change to 10620?

Last pic is just for fun after reading what you said ... >:)


Yea I might just do that! You're definitely on my prio list if/when Im going to bench this sucker :nerd:

Thanks for all the help again it's been really useful!
 

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#27 ·
So I got my headers yesterday....

Ducati must've packaged the wrong parts?

Seems like the headers are for the 1098?

Looking at the image on top I got the new gasket over my old header and below is the new header with my old gasket over.

Hmmm..

Item numbers was sourced from Ducati Omaha 1098R parts catalogue. Seems to be the same part numbers looking in the 1198R Corse catalogue.
Looking at Ducatis official site they also exists in the 1098R Troy Bayliss catalogue.

Ducati Omaha - Ducati OEM Parts Ordering System - Parts Fiche - Ducati Parts
Ducati - Ducati Genuine Parts

Anyone can shed some light onto this?

Im thinking either someone at Ducati factory packaged the wrong parts (since exhausts ports on 1098R is supposed to be same size as 1198)
Or they're simply not the same size?

TomTom I know you have had a/worked with a couple of 1098R engines can you confirm that the exhaust port is indeed bigger on 1098R than on 1098 base ?

Thanks!
 

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#29 ·
A little update.

No luck getting the correct parts from Ducati. The retailer escalated it to Ducati Sweden who in turn contacted Ducati Italy. But then got back to me and recommended me to take an alternate route since they didn't know how long it would take for Ducati Italy to sort this mess out.

I went with TomToms suggestion on getting the original headers from 1198. Funny thing is the rear header is straight bolt-on which was quite nice to find out! However I need to get some work done on the front header so now I just need to find a good welder. :)
 

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