OH R'SS!!! bad luck with R's..advice wanted

[Desmo-Dave]

Not having much luck at the moment. last week I picked up a fully kitted out 2001 853R from an official Ducati dealer. Absolutely Barking!! the bike was a missile!! - unfourtunately it blew up after 10 miles (as missiles tend to do I guess..)... Bah! three hours at the side of the motorway waiting for recovery, cursing my luck, and a certain Ducati dealer. anyway the dealer picked the bike up for inspection and the next day gave the fateful diagnosis.. the condition was terminal and no amount of surgery would help, save a major transplant..Under warranty the deal was reversed, i got back my cash and my part ex bike.
Then a day or so later I heard tell of another 2001 R, in a dealers just down the road from me! not a Ducati franchise but the owner is a 'renowned local Ducati expert' whose done work on my other bikes. I shot off for a look. this R didnt have the 853 kit, but was over a grand cheaper, termi's, lots of extras and was in much better cosmetic condition - almost mint!! Whoopee, id finally found my dream bike! i immediately put a deposit on it and last Saturday, a few thousand pounds lighter, I was astride my new pride and joy. I set off for home with my head in the clouds....and then...BANG!
Within less than a mile from the dealers i found myself literally gazing up at clouds, as I lay postrate on the tarmac, at the foot of a burning bike...(no, i hadnt hit the side of the kerb, nor was the bike burning actually, just a little broken up).
I wasn't hurt, just a few bruises and strained muscles from lifting my now less than 'almost mint' pride and joy up off the road. As always the major personal damage was to ones ego - very embarassing to have to tramp back to a dealers to inform them that youve crashed a bike which youd just two minutes earlier collected from them.
So, what happened? well the first roundabout i came to the bike just dissapeared beneath me, slipped away in a sort of low slide situation..hmmm interesting. With any other bike it would have been bad enough, but my freshly purchased dream bike!??**! Aaaargh!! After I'd slid to a stop, my dreams in tatters, I checked the spot where I fell and there wasnt any obvious signs of diesel spill or such like, despite there being a gas station right next to the roundabout. I had got the dealer to put on new tyres as part of the deal, but i was being careful and Ive never dropped a bike on new tyres before Also this is my third 748, and i very recently put new tyres of the same brand (Bridgestone BT014's) on one of a 748 S and rode far more aggressively from the off without any problems. Once I got the bike home i checked the tyre pressures and they were a lot higher than I would have had them, arguably too high, which may have been a factor. As I put the bike in the garage with a heavy heart, the plot began to thicken..I turned the key to put on the steering lock and.. nothing happened...no steering lock. I realised very quickly that the steering head angle had been changed from road setting to track setting. Now from my memory the manual (Haynes) says never ride on the public highway with the steering angle set to this position as it adversly affects handling and stability. my hunch was that this had played a part in my crash. I checked the manual and a few websites and my memory was correct. I also phoned a couple of Ducati franchises with good reputations and they both agreed with me, saying that the steering head angle set to race position would have 'undoubtedly' contributed to my losing control as the bike would have turned in far too quickly. Thus I feel vindicated to an extent - Over inflated new tyres and an incorrect steering angle could be a recipe for potential disaster.
However getting any kind of recompense from the dealer is a different matter of course. I phoned them today to relate the opinions of the other dealers and the guys response was, 'well I took it for two road tests and I didnt sling it down the road' which i found rather insulting, as he seemed to be suggesting I was either careless or incompetent. My response was that I hadn't had any kind of accident in years and had certainly never dropped a bike In the past due to new tyres. I had taken the R for a test ride and hadn't 'slung it down the road' either, but my argument would be that we werent riding it on new tyres and anyway, perhaps we were just lucky. As it happens I do remember finding the handling slightly strange on that test ride and not feeling as confident as I would have on my other 748's (which ive always found sublime) but didnt really think much about it at the time, Id already decided nothing was going to stop me from buying that bike before Id even touched the thing!
Basically I believe that the bike shouldnt have been supplied to me in that state. I am sure from my own experience and that of experts that the steering head angle played a large factor in the accident, it may not have been the sole factor but it did play a major part. The experts and the manuals state that the bike should never be used on the road with the steering head set for the race track, even on a track it should only be set after the suspension has been set up correctly for the particular rider.
So what to do? should i take this further with the dealer, possible threaten legal action. The damage to the bike runs into a few hundred pounds, which i can ill afford. Do I have a leg to stand on legally or should i just put it down to experience? Any opinions or advice appreciated. Cheers!

[bubbazenetty]

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate misfortune, and hope that you are physically ok. The bike can be fixed, and will hopefully prove to be a reliable and enjoyable ride for you in the future.

Now as far as what caused your accident and who is responsible, I'm unable to accurately comment on as I wasn't there in person.

However I believe you were just unlucky about running into a slick of diesel fuel. The setting on the steering angle, though agressive will not contribute solely to a crash. A very high tire pressure setting as well will not contribute soley to a crash either. However all three were working together and you were the unfortunate soul that was riding the bike at that moment, and that's why you will be the one to accept responsibility.

Don't take this as some sort of attack, but we have all gone down, at one time or another and in most cases the overwelming cause is our inability to accurately access the everchanging road conditions. Chalk it up to a lesson in learning to read the road conditions, and start fixing your bike up for a future fun ride.

Good luck.

[talon101]

well,
i know in the states that the dealer has to let you know everything about the car (well to my knowledge anyway). If the steering was set to racing different from stock, did the dealer tell you it was this way? did he make you believe that you were buying a stock bike? maybe you can the information that you got and go to a lawyer and see what he/she says since they know more about legal laws than me whatever the reason, glad you're save, and the best of luck to ya

[trid741]

I think from what you wrote that new tires and overinflation did it.
Too bad, and good luck anyway!
Another 748R rider

[kaos]

i think your at fault and to blame the dealer is ridiculous.doubt even 70 lbs in a new tire would make it crash given the fact of being careful with new tires and new bike.quick turn in is also not a cause for crash.but i do feel for you its a crappy deal damaging a new ride.

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by bubbazenetty

However I believe you were just unlucky about running into a slick of diesel fuel. The setting on the steering angle, though agressive will not contribute solely to a crash. A very high tire pressure setting as well will not contribute soley to a crash either. However all three were working together and you were the unfortunate soul that was riding the bike at that moment, and that's why you will be the one to accept responsibility.

+1

No matter how you slice it, YOU are responsible for the safe operation of your vehicle, and you were obviously driving too fast for conditions. If you had read the owners manual that comes with every vehicle it tells you to check tire pressure before every trip. It also tells you about the race setting on the steering head. The dealer also some has some responsibility to make sure the bike was road worthy, but your going to have a hard time proving anything in in court. I'm sorry to hear about the bike but I think your just going to have to fix it, forget about it, and get on with your life.

So what caused the 853 to blow up?

[talon101]

Originally Posted by j911brick

+1

No matter how you slice it, YOU are responsible for the safe operation of your vehicle, and you were obviously driving too fast for conditions. If you had read the owners manual that comes with every vehicle it tells you to check tire pressure before every trip. It also tells you about the race setting on the steering head. The dealer also some has some responsibility to make sure the bike was road worthy, but your going to have a hard time proving anything in in court. I'm sorry to hear about the bike but I think your just going to have to fix it, forget about it, and get on with your life.

So what caused the 853 to blow up?

well you know you can sue dealers if they sell cars under false pretenses... thats why i said if he tried to sell it to him as a stock bike or if he informed him that it had modifications on it

[JEC]

Originally Posted by talon101

well you know you can sue dealers if they sell cars under false pretenses... thats why i said if he tried to sell it to him as a stock bike or if he informed him that it had modifications on it

That is a stock bike. Changing the steering angle is not an aftermarket mod... You might as well say that leaving the high-beams on is not stock and could lead to an accident.

I've ridden mine with the street angle, and with the race angle, with low (34-36, the Ducati recommended) and high (36-42, experimenting with more traditional street sportbike recommendations) tyre pressure. (I even had a jammed rebound adjuster on one fork when I first bought it, and the suspension was set rock hard.)

- There is no way it will change the handling characteristics so much that you will immediately lose control. The only difference is a tiny bit more twitchiness (though nothing close to japcrap levels) once leaned over. I hardly even noticed a change in turn in, not without lengthening the rear suspension linkage.

[Desmo-Dave]

Originally Posted by kaos

i think your at fault and to blame the dealer is ridiculous.doubt even 70 lbs in a new tire would make it crash given the fact of being careful with new tires and new bike.quick turn in is also not a cause for crash.but i do feel for you its a crappy deal damaging a new ride.

Thanks to all those who expressed symapthy. In answer to some others rather negative opinions on my abilites, I did say that i believed all three factors - brand new tyres; over inflation; and the incorrect steering head angle; (and possible diesel spill on the road) were to blame. As for being ridiculous, I contacted two other well known Ducati dealers, and they both agreed with me, one actually said that the steering head angle would have, and I quote, 'UNDOUBTEDLY' contributed to me losing control at that moment, and that the steering head angle should 'NEVER' be set to the race position when riding on the road. Perhaps they're just being ridiculous as well. I stress again that in years of riding bikes, (and over 2 years on 748's), I have never crashed on new tyres.

Anyway I contacted Trading standards people yesterday and they said that i definetly have a case. Under Uk Sale of Goods Act 1979 I can argue that the machine was sold to me in an unsatisfactory condition and 'Not Fit for Purpose' because the dealer was selling me a machine as a road bike, but one which was set up for a race track, and he did not inform me of this. (the steering lock not functioning would also be an issue under this act as the bike was not adequately protected from theft). the fact that the dealer and myself had previously taken the bike for road tests and didnt crash, holds no sway. The bottom line is the bike should not have been supplied to me as a road bike in that setting. I quote from Haynes manual:

CHASSIS GEOMETRY - WARNING: ADJUSTMENTS TO CHASSIS GEOMETRY WILL HAVE A MARKED EFFECT ON THE HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MACHINE....

THE STANDARD SETTINGS HAVE BEEN TRIED AND TESTED BY DUCATI TO GIVE BEST HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS FOR NORMAL ROAD USE. ANY DEVIATION FORM THESE SETTINGS COULD RESULT IN THE HANDLING OF THE MACHINE BECOMING UNPREDICATABLE AND EVEN DANGEROUS....

STEERING HEAD ANGLE. WARNING: THE STEERING HEAD ANGLE MUST BE SET TO THE 'ROAD' POSITION WHENEVER THE BIKE IS USED ON THE ROAD (ALL MACHINES ARE SUPPLIED WITH THE STEERING ANGLE SET TO THIS POSITION). ......

2 THE ADJUSTER HAS TWO POSITIONS A 'ROAD' POSITION DESIGNED TO ENSURE SAFE AND PREDICTABLE HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS ON ALL KIND OF ROAD SURFACES, A RACE POSITION FOR USE ONLY ON RACE TRACKS. THE CHANGE IN STEERING HEAD ANGLE ALTERS THE TRAIL OF THE MOTORCYCLE WHICH HAS A MARKED EFFECT ON THE HANDLING AND STABILITY OF THE BIKE.

I would argue that if an owner decides to change these settings on their bike then that is their responsibility. But the dealer should not have supplied the bike with set up for a race track without at the very least informing the purchaser. This was irresponsible and importantly it could have contributed to a more serious accident on the road than it did.

The only thing now which may stop me from taking this further is that I don't wasnt to fall out with this guy as he's worked on my other bikes for a while and generally I've always found him competent. Also there is the issue of the warranty on the bike, if something comes up in the future I could hardly expect their full commitment if I'd upset them by taking legal action against them in the past.

[kaos]

you wanted opinions,so i gave you mine.just like i didn't think macdonalds(fast food chain) was at fault when that lady was burnt from her coffee while she was driving.(she said it was too hot).but she won too.