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Still won't start...

22K views 13 replies 4 participants last post by  JDuc 
#1 ·
So, my husbands bike still won't start.

We had this problem in Arkansas a while back, traced it back to the starter, bought a used starter and replaced it. It worked...for a few months. Then it wouldn't start. Tried everything we could think of, then finally broke down and bought a starter rebuild kit. Rebuild the factory (original) starter, pulled the starter that's on the bike, put the rebuilt one in, and it still won't start.

  • Can jump (bypass) the starter solenoid and it still won't start.
  • Swapped the battery for the one in my bike, still won't start.
  • Tried to jump it off of a car battery, still won't start.
  • When you turn the key, you can hear the fuel pump prime, but when you hit the ignition, you get nothing.
  • OCCASIONALLY the starter solenoid will click, but even then, it won't spin the starter.
We don't have the $$ to take the bike in, as I was laid off 2 weeks ago. My husband has been riding my bike to work instead, but once I find work again, I'll be needing my bike back....since it's so much cheaper to ride to work than to drive....which leaves him without a bike...so he would have to drive.

Does ANYONE have ANY clue what could be wrong here?

Anything we can trace?

Anyone happen to have a wiring diagram for a 2004 S4R?
 
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#2 ·
Stupid question...u got gas in the tank? Open up the choke? I've had a similiar problem w/ my old M620 years ago and it ended up to be a relay under the seat that was at fault. The relay would intermittently make contact and so the bike would start hit and miss.

Sorry to hear of ur layoff - that sux! Sign of the times.
 
#3 ·
Oh yes, have gas in the tank.
 
#4 ·
sounds like an immobilizer issue. you should have black keys and a RED key. read thru your manual and it should give you step by step instructions how to go about starting. I think your security system needs to be reset. I hope you have a red key.
 
#5 ·
Would the bike be able to start MY bike if it were an immobilizer issue?
 
#6 ·
I hope we're on the same page here. You're saying the engine won't
crank, and not that it'll crank but won't start. If that is indeed the
problem, then I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Make sure ALL the cables are tight and clean. My experience over the
past decades of working on bikes is 9 times out of 10 it's the simple
things. Faulty(broken) cables, corroded fittings and poor ground
connections. Verify all are ok. The simple things always seem to get
overlooked.
2. Assuming the battery has enough juice, by-passing directly the
starter solenoid should always crank the starter. The ignition immobilizer
should have no effect on this direct test.
3. If you have a voltmeter, disconnect the solenoid hot wire, turn the
ignition on, hit the starter buttom and check the voltage at the wire.
Of course 12-13V is the accepted norm.
3. Failing all this, remove that damned starter, and connect it directly to
a good battery. A couple of cautionary points:
1. Be sure the cables are of suitable gauge. Too small and the extra
resistance will obscure the results.
2. Hold the starter tightly! Torque reaction from that heavy iron
armature can twist it right out of your hand.
Of course this is a "no-load" test, but it'll give you an indicator of the
starter's health.

Good luck, but let me add for emphasis one more time: Check ALL of
those connections! Make sure they're all clean and tight.
 
#8 ·
I hope we're on the same page here. You're saying the engine won't
crank, and not that it'll crank but won't start. If that is indeed the
problem, then I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Make sure ALL the cables are tight and clean. My experience over the
past decades of working on bikes is 9 times out of 10 it's the simple
things. Faulty(broken) cables, corroded fittings and poor ground
connections. Verify all are ok. The simple things always seem to get
overlooked.
Competing in car audio competitions on a national level and having 4 world titles to defend....the electrical connections at the battery are one of the FIRST things we check...it's kind of natural at this point...lol


2. Assuming the battery has enough juice, by-passing directly the
starter solenoid should always crank the starter. The ignition immobilizer
should have no effect on this direct test.
As stated, this didn't work.

3. If you have a voltmeter, disconnect the solenoid hot wire, turn the ignition on, hit the starter buttom and check the voltage at the wire.
Of course 12-13V is the accepted norm.
Already done. Seeing 12.5v

3. Failing all this, remove that damned starter, and connect it directly to a good battery. A couple of cautionary points:
Did all of this as well. Would kick, but not start. Even after rebuilding BOTH starters.

We've sent the starter off to Stocker's and he's going to rebuild the armature for us. Should have it back in a week or so...providing shipping doesn't loose it...;)
 
#7 ·
Of course, as soon as I post, it noticed I failed to mention one other
point to watch for. Ducati, like all manufacturers, simply crimps
instead of solders their battery cable terminals. Sure it's the cheap
way, but corrosion always seem to creep into the fitting. Pay especially
close attention to the cable end screwed to the starter post. Rain
thrown up from the front wheel gets into that upside down rubber
grommet covering the terminal and promotes corrosion of the cable/
terminal interface. Check it carefully. My ST-2 was a sluggish starter
until I replaced the cable and terminal with higher grade stuff. In
hind sight, a simple soldering of the fitting would have sufficed. If this
is your problem, you can prevent it in the future by cutting a small hole
in the rubber grommet to allow any trapped water to exit. Why Ducati
doesn't do this is anyone's guess. Maybe it never rains in Italy. One
bright side to solving a seemingly intractable problem is the immense
sense of satisfaction you'll get when you do. Surely that's worth the
aggravation you're going through now, isn't it?
 
#9 ·
This is apparently water over the dam now that you're convinced the
starter is defective and mailed it off to be rebuilt, but at the risk of
received a waspish retort, there's a couple of additional points:
1. How do you know the starter relay is good? Because it clicks?
That simply means the relay inside is working. The contacts could be
burned or de-soldered. How do you know for sure?
2. A voltmeter at the output of the solenoid could test for output,
but that doesn't mean the internal contacts are capable of carrying the
amperage necessary.
3. You were apparently insulted when I suggested that all cables and
contacts be thoroughly checked. But would that be sufficient? I've run
across battery cables that appeared fine on outward inspection, only to
discover after much tail-chasing there was internal corrosion and broken
wire strands inside. I've since never trusted visual inspection, and now
use a thick gauge jump wire (like jumper cables) to ground the engine
directly to the Neg. battery terminal. When possible, I also substitute
this cable for hot leads as well.
Having committed yourself to the price of a rebuild, let's hope that was
the problem, and not wasted money.
 
#11 ·
This is apparently water over the dam now that you're convinced the
starter is defective and mailed it off to be rebuilt, but at the risk of
received a waspish retort, there's a couple of additional points:
1. How do you know the starter relay is good? Because it clicks?
That simply means the relay inside is working. The contacts could be
burned or de-soldered. How do you know for sure?
Man, I'm sorry I ruffled your feathers.

Besides, if you remove the starter from the equation, and use everything before it, it will turn my bike over without a single issue....that's a BIG clue right there, is it not?

3. You were apparently insulted when I suggested that all cables and contacts be thoroughly checked.
No...not insulted....*sigh* Only explaining that this isn't exactly our first walk around electricity. You see, when I posted this previously (about 3 months ago), I was treated as if I knew nothing about nothing...including about electricity. Not everyone out there is super green when it comes to things in general. I understand that it's the safe thing to assume it, but it's also fairly annoying on the other side of the fence.

Again, I'm not insulted...I only mentioned those facts to help demonstrate the fact that with 4 world titles in car audio sound quality competitions, we know these things. Coming from that background, that's the first thing we check.


Having committed yourself to the price of a rebuild, let's hope that was the problem, and not wasted money.
We called and talked to a local dealership and told them everything we went though, to be told it's got to be the starter as well. Dealerships don't rebuild starters, they just replace them. So we could have taken it to them, and let them replaced the starter for $590 + labor....or....

We called and talked to the guy we initially bought the rebuild kit from (all but the armature), to be told it's probably the armature. He can resleeve it for us.

I had already bought and paid for the rebuild kit. We had already tried that route. The guy told us we could ship it to him, and if he could get it working by rebuilding the armature, then great...he would give us a discount since we bought the rebuild kit from him. If not, he would ship it back.
 
#12 ·
nevermind, I read the post after my posting. I guessing you bypassed the starter solenoid
 
#14 ·
Update!

The bike runs now!

Got the starter back, tested it before hooking it up, and it finally spun. Something it simply wouldn't do before. So the armature was in fact bad. Glad we got it fixed.

Now, the question was...why two starters so quick?

Put the starter back in the bike, went to start it...it wouldn't start.

Did some extremely indepth testing with the DMM and found that we had a bad ground, but it was VERY intermittent.

The ground to the motor was the culprit. The threads on the motor its self were actually stripped.

We went to unbolt the ground connection to the motor and it simply wouldn't budge. This has NEVER been removed. It's the same as it was from the factory. We had to work at it to finally get it to break loose.

The bolt had aluminum from the motor in the threads and when you would look down the hole, you could see that the threads were buggered up.

That would explain why it wouldn't start still...point contact isn't exactly a good ground.

Happy to have this figured out and have the bike running again.

I'm also VERY happy that we went ahead and got the starter fixed. We never would have been able to find this issue if we didn't know 100% that the starter was good. We would have spent a good deal of time troubleshooting random things.

Even if we had found that previously, we STILL would have had to have the starter rebuilt anyways....so again, very happy to have that done.

:)
 
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